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Car that needs refueling only every 100 years; Boom goes peak oil
Topic Started: 4 Dec 2013, 03:22 PM (7,795 Views)
Count du Monet
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Frank Castle
6 Dec 2013, 06:15 PM
When I right click - search google for this image, I get liquid fluoride thorium reactor

No, the fuel was Hybrid, mixture of uranium and Thorium. Didn't reach the optimal conversion of a true breeder. It had to shut down after a few years well short of the expected 30 years life. The fuel ate through the special alloy they had designed to contain it even though the drawing board plan indicated there would be no problem. They haven't finished cleaning the site so it remains a virtual nuclear accident.

The problem is even the economics at optimum level are still far more expensive than "conventional" light and heavy water reactors. There's now a number of new experimental reactors but so far these have been prone to accidents and problems. We won't know the full story on the research until the 2030's.
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Andrew Judd
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Count du Monet
6 Dec 2013, 07:23 PM
No, the fuel was Hybrid, mixture of uranium and Thorium.
There was no Thorium in the reactor.


It was a Uranium molten salt reactor
Edited by Andrew Judd, 6 Dec 2013, 07:58 PM.
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Count du Monet
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Andrew Judd
6 Dec 2013, 07:57 PM
There was no Thorium in the reactor.


It was a Uranium molten salt reactor
Quote:
 
The fluid fuel in these reactors, consisting of UF4
and ThF4 dissolved in fluorides of beryllium and
lithium, is circulated through a reactor core
moderated by graphite.


http://moltensalt.org.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/references/static/downloads/pdf/NAT_MSRintro.pdf

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Andrew Judd
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Count du Monet
6 Dec 2013, 08:04 PM


http://www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/NAT_MSREexperience.pdf

"The fuel salt contains no thorium because at the time the reactor was being designed we were thinking in
terms of the two-fluid breeder and we made the MSIRE salt similar to the anticipated breeder fuel salt."



Edited by Andrew Judd, 6 Dec 2013, 08:47 PM.
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miw
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Count du Monet
6 Dec 2013, 08:04 PM
But there is nothing in the paper to suggest that they ever got as far as using Thorium as the fuel in the Molten Salt Reactor Experiment (MSRE). It seems U233 was used. The U233 was bred from Thorium elsewhere. The purpose of the experiment in the first instance was to test the feasibility of molten salt as a fuel.

Quote:
 
The design of the Molten-Salt Reactor
Experiment was begun in 1960. A single-fluid
reactor was selected that in its engineering features
resembled a converter, but the fuel salt did not
contain thorium and thus was similar to the fuel salt
for a two-fluid breeder. The MSRE fuel salt is a
mixture of uranium, lithium-7, beryllium, and
zirconium fluorides. Unclad graphite serves as the
moderator
(the salt does not
wet graphite and will
not penetrate into its pores if the pore sizes are
small). All other parts of the system that contact
salt are made from the nickel-base alloy, INOR-8
(also called Hastelloy-N), which was specially
developed in the aircraft program for use with
molten fluorides. The maximum power is ~8 MWt,
and the heat is rejected to the atmosphere.
Construction of the MSRE began in 1962, and
the reactor was first critical in 1965. Sustained
operation at full power began in December 1966.
Successful completion of a six-month run in March
of 1968 brought to a close the first phase of
operation during which the initial objectives were
achieved. The molten fluoride fuel was used for
many months at temperatures > 1200ºF (920 K)
without corrosive attack on the metal and graphite
parts of the system. The reactor equipment
operated reliably and the radioactive liquids and
gases were contained safely. The fuel was
completely stable. Xenon was removed rapidly
from the salt. When necessary, radioactive
equipment was repaired or replaced in reasonable
time and without over
exposing maintenance
personnel.
The second phase of MSRE operation began in
August 1968 when a sma
ll processing facility
attached to the reactor was used to remove the
original uranium by treating the fuel salt with
fluorine gas. A charge of
233
U fuel was added to
the same carrier salt, and on October 2 the MSRE
was made critical on
233
U. Six days later the power
was taken to 100 kW by Glenn T. Seaborg,
Chairman of the US Atomic Energy Commission,
bringing to power the first reactor to operate on
233
U.
During the years when the MSRE was being
built and brought into operation, most of the de-
velopment work on molten-salt reactors was in
support of the MSRE. However, basic chemistry
studies of molten fluoride salts continued through-
out this period. One discovery
10
during this time
was that the lithium fluoride and beryllium fluoride
in a fuel salt can be separated from rare earths by
vacuum distillation at temperatures near 1000
°
C.
This was a significant discovery, since it provided
an inexpensive, on-site method for recovering these
valuable materials. As a consequence, the study
effort looking at future reactors focused on a two-
fluid breeder in which the fuel salt would be
fluorinated to recover the uranium and distilled to
separate the carrier salt from fission products. The
blanket salt would be pr
ocessed by fluorination
alone, since few fission products would be
generated in the blanket if the uranium
concentration were kept low. Graphite tubes would
be used in the core to keep the fuel and fertile
streams from mixing.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.
--Gloria Steinem
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Count du Monet
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miw
6 Dec 2013, 08:22 PM
But there is nothing in the paper to suggest that they ever got as far as using Thorium as the fuel in the Molten Salt Reactor Experiment (MSRE). It seems U233 was used. The U233 was bred from Thorium elsewhere. The purpose of the experiment in the first instance was to test the feasibility of molten salt as a fuel.

It's breeder design, U233 is usually bred from Thorium which means it would have been constituted mostly of Thorium.
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miw
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Count du Monet
6 Dec 2013, 08:39 PM
It's breeder design, U233 is usually bred from Thorium which means it would have been constituted mostly of Thorium.
Quote:
 
The design of the Molten-Salt Reactor
Experiment was begun in 1960. A single-fluid
reactor was selected that in its engineering features
resembled a converter, but the fuel salt did not
contain thorium
and thus was similar to the fuel salt
for a two-fluid breeder.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.
--Gloria Steinem
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Count du Monet
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What did it contain then? It couldn't be all U233 or you'd have a dirty bomb. So what was the other medium?
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miw
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Count du Monet
6 Dec 2013, 09:12 PM
What did it contain then? It couldn't be all U233 or you'd have a dirty bomb. So what was the other medium?
Good question. It doesn't say. U238 maybe?
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Pig Iron
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Bogan scum

Count du Monet
6 Dec 2013, 07:23 PM
No, the fuel was Hybrid, mixture of uranium and Thorium.
thorium is fertile not fissile, it will always need a source to initiate.

Count du Monet
6 Dec 2013, 03:52 PM
That's a trial which failed to achieve the optimal success they wanted. There's a number of thorium reactors being constructed around the world. Again it is trial. If over time they produce optimal results then in the 2030's we might see breeder reactors for both metals built on the commercial scale.

Too dumb to tell the difference. :re:

As for something small enough to fit in a car, that remains science fiction.
oh so we have gone from it only being a concept on paper to being a trial that didn't produce OPTIMAL results?

who's the dumb one again???
Edited by Pig Iron, 6 Dec 2013, 10:19 PM.
I am the love child of Tony Abbott and Pauline Hanson
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