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Car that needs refueling only every 100 years; Boom goes peak oil
Topic Started: 4 Dec 2013, 03:22 PM (7,799 Views)
Andrew Judd
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Kulganis
5 Dec 2013, 12:25 AM
The Molten Salt Reactor that they built at Oak Ridge was a Thorium Breeder Reactor, it used Thorium to breed Uranium-233, they actually built it and ran it for 5 years.
I dont think so. It was only a mock up and had no blanket of thorium to create U233. Instead it used U233 from other sources. The idea was to test the engineering challenges in a reactor with molten salt without also facing the challenges of getting thorium to work at the same time.

You are presumably referring to this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment
Edited by Andrew Judd, 5 Dec 2013, 12:49 AM.
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Kulganis
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Andrew Judd
5 Dec 2013, 12:35 AM
I dont think so. It was only a mock up and had no blanket of thorium to create U233. Instead it used U233 from other sources. The idea was to test the engineering challenges in a reactor with molten salt without also facing the challenges of getting thorium to work at the same time.
To be honest, between you and Kirk Sorensen, I'll have to go with Kirk when he said they built one at ORNL. I don't know you from a bag of spuds, but I know his credentials.

Uranium 233 doesn't come from other sources, the way to make it is using Thorium 232.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry

"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
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Olmule
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Kulganis
5 Dec 2013, 12:54 AM
To be honest, between you and Kirk Sorensen, I'll have to go with Kirk when he said they built one at ORNL. I don't know you from a bag of spuds, but I know his credentials.

Uranium 233 doesn't come from other sources, the way to make it is using Thorium 232.
you need to read the wikipedia link.

Game, set and match to Count and AJ
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Andrew Judd
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Kulganis
5 Dec 2013, 12:54 AM
To be honest, between you and Kirk Sorensen, I'll have to go with Kirk when he said they built one at ORNL. I don't know you from a bag of spuds, but I know his credentials.

Uranium 233 doesn't come from other sources, the way to make it is using Thorium 232.

Do you have a link or are you just going to rely on somebody on the internet who graduated in 1999??

You appear to be talking about this experiment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment

Is it all a big conspiracy or what?

The least you can do is explain what you are thinking.
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miw
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Kulganis
5 Dec 2013, 12:25 AM
The Molten Salt Reactor that they built at Oak Ridge was a Thorium Breeder Reactor, it used Thorium to breed Uranium-233, they actually built it and ran it for 5 years.
That's what I thought as well, but further research turned up that the Thorium-U233 breeding took place in other reactors - i.e. the entire process did use thorium and only thorium as a fuel, but the breeder reactor and the power reactor were separate devices.

The whole thorium lobby seems to me to be just a little dishonest about what has already been achieved. This is a shame, because the thorium cycle promises to go a long way towards solving two of the less tractable problems of nukes - i.e. proliferation and waste storage.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.
--Gloria Steinem
AREPS™
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Andrew Judd
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miw
5 Dec 2013, 01:11 AM
That's what I thought as well, but further research turned up that the Thorium-U233 breeding took place in other reactors - i.e. the entire process did use thorium and only thorium as a fuel, but the breeder reactor and the power reactor were separate devices.

The whole thorium lobby seems to me to be just a little dishonest about what has already been achieved. This is a shame, because the thorium cycle promises to go a long way towards solving two of the less tractable problems of nukes - i.e. proliferation and waste storage.
Interestingly in 2006 Kirk F Sorensen created the original wiki article as what appears to be a direct copy of an original article

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment&oldid=60572285

The fuel is Uranium and all of the metal surfaces exposed to the molten salt had 'shallow inter-granular cracking'

"The one quite unexpected finding of great importance was the shallow inter-granular cracking observed in all metal surfaces exposed to the fuel salt. This was first noted in the specimens that were removed from the core at intervals during the reactor operation. Post-operation examination of pieces of a control-rod thimble, heat-exchanger tubes, and pump bowl parts revealed the ubiquity of the cracking and emphasized its importance to the MSR concept. Further investigations and possible consequences are discussed in Chapters 7 and 14 of this report."

Edited by Andrew Judd, 5 Dec 2013, 01:27 AM.
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Kulganis
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miw
5 Dec 2013, 01:11 AM
That's what I thought as well, but further research turned up that the Thorium-U233 breeding took place in other reactors - i.e. the entire process did use thorium and only thorium as a fuel, but the breeder reactor and the power reactor were separate devices.

The whole thorium lobby seems to me to be just a little dishonest about what has already been achieved. This is a shame, because the thorium cycle promises to go a long way towards solving two of the less tractable problems of nukes - i.e. proliferation and waste storage.
Yes, Thorium 232 is the breeder material that makes Uranium 233, which is the fissile material inside the power reactor.

Current Uranium based reactors can't use the material that is dug up either, the Uranium 238 has to be enriched first, which is an incredibly expensive process.

Yes, there are challenges yet to be conquered, yes, the technology isn't ready for mass production.


I'm going by the links I've already posted and by Kirk Sorensen, I'm not sure why you think him graduating in 1999 has any weight on the subject.
When did you last work as a Chief Nuclear Technologist?
Edited by Kulganis, 5 Dec 2013, 01:38 AM.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry

"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
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Andrew Judd
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Kulganis
5 Dec 2013, 01:36 AM
Yes, Thorium 232 is the breeder material that makes Uranium 233, which is the fissile material inside the power reactor.

Current Uranium based reactors can't use the material that is dug up either, the Uranium 238 has to be enriched first, which is an incredibly expensive process.

Yes, there are challenges yet to be conquered, yes, the technology isn't ready for mass production.


I'm going by the links I've already posted and by Kirk Sorensen, I'm not sure why you think him graduating in 1999 has any weight on the subject.
When did you last work as a Chief Nuclear Technologist?
In 2006, according to Kirk Sorensen the ORNL reactor experiment was a proof of concept design for molten salt breeder reactors using U233 from other sources.

If you have some other links telling me what Kirk Sorensen believes now, and why he believes that now then why not help me out a bit please??
Kulganis
4 Dec 2013, 09:54 PM
The researchers at Oak Ridge National Laboratory built one in 1965... It's discussed from about 8 and a half minutes into this video...



It was running for 5 years.

Gah, Thorium isn't expensive, it's found all over the planet, it's actually currently considered waste from mining operations.
Kulganis

Move to 8:46 of your video

The fuel is Uranium.

Sorensen says 'during that time they demonstrated alot of the features that we would want ultimately in a LFTR'
Edited by Andrew Judd, 5 Dec 2013, 02:05 AM.
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Olmule
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Come on Kulganis, just say it.

It's ok, we all have to say it some times. Nothing to be ashamed of.
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Count du Monet
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Kulganis
5 Dec 2013, 01:36 AM
Yes, Thorium 232 is the breeder material that makes Uranium 233, which is the fissile material inside the power reactor.

Current Uranium based reactors can't use the material that is dug up either, the Uranium 238 has to be enriched first, which is an incredibly expensive process.

Yes, there are challenges yet to be conquered, yes, the technology isn't ready for mass production.
In uranium ore a very small percentage of the atoms are the 235 isotope. The aim is to separate out the 238 atoms so one ends with material with a higher concentration of the 235. So one ends with a rod with several times the natural concentration 235. During the fission process and amount of the 238 atoms are converted to 235, this in turn providing more fission. But whatever one ends up with a load of 238 waste.

To create fissionable 233 from thorium 232 requires bombarding the thorium with neutrons from 235 so one ends up with a thorium rod with the required percentage of 233. The problem in all these processes is that a supply of naturally occurring 235 is required and all these processes are net users of 235. A thorium breeder rector would be able to create more 233 than it uses as fuel, but so far there hasn't been a real breeder reactor for Uranium let alone Thorium. All these processes have to be topped up by the natural occurring supply of 235. So far reactors do create the fissionable isotopes but not at rate that fully replaces the naturally occurring fissionable isotope as it is burned up.
The next trick of our glorious banks will be to charge us a fee for using net bank!!!
You are no longer customer, you are property!!!

Don't be SAUCY with me Bernaisse
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