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Can the Debt Ceiling Keep getting bigger; When will it stop?
Topic Started: 11 Oct 2013, 10:19 PM (4,059 Views)
Kulganis
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Andrew Judd
12 Oct 2013, 06:42 PM
Money cannot be a fiction.

Money is a human construct that represents something real.

Money that does not represent anything real has no value at all.

And when we talk of mone we have to recognise there are very many moneys

There is a clear implicit promise behind fiat money. Namely that the government will not spend so much money into existance via whatever form that takes that, to the point will come where it is impossible to conceive that taxes could ever be sufficiently high, or spending could be sufficiently reduced to enable the financial system to survive.

Bank created money has the clear implicit promise that the sum total of borrowers will not do anything to threaten the underlying capital base of the lending institution where the bank is not only creating money from nothing without consequence as if the money created was a fiction and they had no reasonable right to require repayment in full.
Money represents value, money itself isn't valuable, money is a concept, a fiction.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry

"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
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Andrew Judd
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Kulganis
12 Oct 2013, 06:53 PM
Money represents value, money itself isn't valuable, money is a concept, a fiction.
A concept is not a fiction


You appear to be confusing the container of the money with the concept.

Money as the container is fictional. The represented money is not fictional


Edited by Andrew Judd, 12 Oct 2013, 07:14 PM.
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Kulganis
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Yes it is, you cannot hold a concept in your hands, you hold it in your head, you can represent a concept on paper in art or words, but the actual concept isn't a real thing.

con·cept
/ˈkänsept/
Noun
An abstract idea; a general notion.
A plan or intention; a conception.
Synonyms
notion - idea - conception - thought - intention



The represented money, is currency
Edited by Kulganis, 12 Oct 2013, 07:15 PM.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry

"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
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Andrew Judd
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Kulganis
12 Oct 2013, 07:14 PM
Yes it is, you cannot hold a concept in your hands, you hold it in your head, you can represent a concept on paper in art or words, but the actual concept isn't a real thing.

con·cept
/ˈkänsept/
Noun
An abstract idea; a general notion.
A plan or intention; a conception.
Synonyms
notion - idea - conception - thought - intention
If you and I agree a transaction in our heads via words we speak or write down what remains is not fictional

Something real exists

If you subsequently decide that what we did was a fiction then you are either senile or confused or a fraud.

Edited by Andrew Judd, 12 Oct 2013, 07:17 PM.
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Kulganis
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The agreement exists, the product exists, the currency exists, but the money doesn't.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry

"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
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Andrew Judd
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Kulganis
12 Oct 2013, 07:18 PM
The agreement exists, the product exists, the currency exists, but the money doesn't.
If we construct a concept car that only exists in our minds the car is not fictional.

The car exists as a concept car.

Money is a concept.

Money is not fictional

Concept synonyms: Idea Thought

"I have an idea" is not equivalent to "I have a fictional thought"
Edited by Andrew Judd, 12 Oct 2013, 07:43 PM.
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Kulganis
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The car is fictional until it's built, then it's fact.

fic·tion
/ˈfikSHən/
Noun
Prose literature, esp. short stories and novels, about imaginary events and people.
Invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.
Synonyms
figment - invention - fabrication

Andrew Judd
12 Oct 2013, 07:38 PM

"I have an idea" is not equivalent to "I have a fictional thought"
So what is a figment of imagination?
Edited by Kulganis, 12 Oct 2013, 07:45 PM.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry

"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
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Andrew Judd
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Kulganis
12 Oct 2013, 07:42 PM
The car is fictional until it's built, then it's fact.

fic·tion
/ˈfikSHən/
Noun
Prose literature, esp. short stories and novels, about imaginary events and people.
Invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.
Synonyms
figment - invention - fabrication
The car is not fictional! A fictional car need have no basis in reality. Fiction and concept can indeed be blurred. However concept is not equivalent to fiction

Concept synonyms: Idea Thought

"I have an idea" is not equivalent to "I have a fictional thought"
Kulganis
12 Oct 2013, 07:42 PM
The car is fictional until it's built, then it's fact.

fic·tion
/ˈfikSHən/
Noun
Prose literature, esp. short stories and novels, about imaginary events and people.
Invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.
Synonyms
figment - invention - fabrication


So what is a figment of imagination?

A figment of imagination means you created an idea without reference to external realities. You thought you saw something but what you saw was entirely created by you without reference to reality
Edited by Andrew Judd, 12 Oct 2013, 07:51 PM.
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miw
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This is all getting pretty philosophical. You guys are just arguing about stuff the philosophers don't agree on. It could go on forever.

Can something that is not concrete be real? Good question.

To my mind, money is real, but intrinsically it has no value. It only has value when tied to concrete things by a system of agreements, backed up by laws. In the absence of a legal system and binding agreements, it becomes worthless because the link to the concrete is lost. A fiction can also be real - e.g. a legal fiction, which is real but only in a virtual sense.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.
--Gloria Steinem
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Kulganis
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figment of one's imagination

Idioms & Phrases
figment of one's imagination

Something made up, invented, or fabricated, as in "The long dishevelled hair, the swelled black face, the exaggerated stature were figments of imagination" (Charlotte Brontë, Jane Eyre , 1847). This term is redundant, since figment means "product of the imagination." [Early 1800s]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/figment+of+one's+imagination

Production of the imagination, absolutely describes thoughts, ideas, concepts, even inventions. A concept car is a production of imagination till it's built.
miw
12 Oct 2013, 07:56 PM
This is all getting pretty philosophical. You guys are just arguing about stuff the philosophers don't agree on. It could go on forever.

Can something that is not concrete be real? Good question.

To my mind, money is real, but intrinsically it has no value. It only has value when tied to concrete things by a system of agreements, backed up by laws. In the absence of a legal system and binding agreements, it becomes worthless because the link to the concrete is lost. A fiction can also be real - e.g. a legal fiction, which is real but only in a virtual sense.
It's also like real numbers, numbers don't exist, find me a physical 1 or 2 that I can hold. You can't, they aren't real, but in mathematics they're real because they're not imaginary like i the square root of -1

Also, what you're describing is currency, even precious metals are currency, they have value only because we agree that they have value.

And yes, I agree, this sort of philosophical debate could go on for an eternity.
(I don't believe in forever, time, another construct of humans to compartmentalise the multiverse)
Edited by Kulganis, 12 Oct 2013, 08:10 PM.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry

"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
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