1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible.
2. Currency is NOT money, but merely represents money.
Money is data on networks.Housing loans don't 'tie-up' capital, but houses do, any assets do, until the asset is sold, the working capital is 'stored' in the asset. Maybe some bears are confused about the difference between liquid and illiquid capital, but some bulls are as well.
When a seller makes money from a sale, they are releasing the 'tied-up' capital that they 'stored' in their asset and the buyer is 'storing' their working capital in their new asset.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry
"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
Of course it's not, there isn't that many notes in circulation, but $16 trillion is very hard to imagine.
1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible.
2. Currency is NOT money, but merely represents money.
Money is data on networks.Housing loans don't 'tie-up' capital, but houses do, any assets do, until the asset is sold, the working capital is 'stored' in the asset. Maybe some bears are confused about the difference between liquid and illiquid capital, but some bulls are as well.
When a seller makes money from a sale, they are releasing the 'tied-up' capital that they 'stored' in their asset and the buyer is 'storing' their working capital in their new asset.
+1.
except
Quote:
Housing loans don't 'tie-up' capital, but houses do, any assets do, until the asset is sold, the working capital is 'stored' in the asset.
In fact the same amount of capital is tied up "stored" in the house before and after transfer: the amount of capital that was put in to build the house in the first place (minus depreciation, I guess). The rest is just moving deposits around.
When it comes right down to it, it is production of goods and services that produces wealth and consumption of same that destroys it. Money is just a way of keeping score.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. --Gloria Steinem AREPS™
If the US economy is growing by more than the debt over the longer term then it doesn't really matter one bit.
But the US is running a budget deficit equivalent to 6% GDP to produce growth of 2.5% GDP. All those who think the US will magically grow their way out of debt could probably use a mathematics lesson.
They have a few things going for them such as LNG but their structural deficit is a serious problem.
seriously, are you financially illiterate in all areas? Don't you know the consequencial difference between a CC balance of $750 and one of $75,000.
The theory that you you can grow your way out of debt is like the special theory of relativity. It works! But only for a limited set of conditions. The special theory of debt accumulation is now giving way to the general theory of debt accumulation. Just like it did after the roaring twenties. That was a period in history BTW where to be a holder of debt was catastrophic to your future happiness. It bred an entire generation and more of people who hated debt, wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
you think the debt ceiling is like a credit card debt.
mel deposits a more financially literate log in the toilet each day than you.
In fact the same amount of capital is tied up "stored" in the house before and after transfer: the amount of capital that was put in to build the house in the first place (minus depreciation, I guess). The rest is just moving deposits around.
When it comes right down to it, it is production of goods and services that produces wealth and consumption of same that destroys it. Money is just a way of keeping score.
Completely agree with this. I'm just bad at explaining things I think.
Construction costs, like materials and so on are stored with the asset, but the labour component is generating wealth for others, it depends on how much you value their workmanship.
If you don't have a loan out against an asset, all the capital spent on procuring and maintaining the asset is still stored within it, just hope, when you're ready to sell it, that people will value it more than you did.
And yes, money is just a way to keep score.
Quote:
The money's just a way of keeping score. It's the game that's important - Silk - The Belgariad - David Eddings
I can't remember which book it is, there's seven in the series from memory, another author that I love.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry
"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
Of course it's not, there isn't that many notes in circulation, but $16 trillion is very hard to imagine.
1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible.
2. Currency is NOT money, but merely represents money.
Money is data on networks.Housing loans don't 'tie-up' capital, but houses do, any assets do, until the asset is sold, the working capital is 'stored' in the asset. Maybe some bears are confused about the difference between liquid and illiquid capital, but some bulls are as well.
When a seller makes money from a sale, they are releasing the 'tied-up' capital that they 'stored' in their asset and the buyer is 'storing' their working capital in their new asset.
1. Money is a human construct or concept. Does that make it imaginary, and unreal even if it is intangible?
2. Yes currency is not money and it represents money
3. Money is data on networks? Data on networks is something real - although you might not realise this is so. 3. conflicts with 2.
Money is promisory. That is something expected and assumed to be real, where if there is no reality there is assumed to be consequences.
Therefore
"1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible"
Distorts the meaning of money
Kulganis
12 Oct 2013, 04:25 PM
Housing loans don't 'tie-up' capital, but houses do, any assets do, until the asset is sold, the working capital is 'stored' in the asset. Maybe some bears are confused about the difference between liquid and illiquid capital, but some bulls are as well.
When a seller makes money from a sale, they are releasing the 'tied-up' capital that they 'stored' in their asset and the buyer is 'storing' their working capital in their new asset.
>>Housing loans don't 'tie-up' capital, but houses do, any assets do, until the asset is sold, the working capital is 'stored' in the asset.
I am not sure what you are getting at. Housing loans tie up very very little capital or at least they did prior to this crisis. Please elaborate.
Edit: Or maybe i misread that when i first replied. The issue of capital depends on which view is used. If you construct/buy a house with your own money then your capital is released for the economy via the act of spending. If you renovate a house your capital goes into the house and then into the economy. If you sell the house your capital comes from the economy back to you. And yes while you had the house and had actually put capital into it then your capital was stored in the house.
The current crisis was created by enabling people to create capital via house price inflation as banks increased their leverage where here was an irrational assumption the banks could be repaid and people could keep their created capital. As of today we still do not know who is going to take the haircut. The first solution attempted in the US was to double the amount of capital held by bond holders by creating money/capital from nothing, and obviously so far the richer do not want their created capital taken from them and neither do the poorer.
1. Money is a human construct or concept. Does that make it imaginary, and unreal even if it is intangible?
2. Yes currency is not money and it represents money
3. Money is data on networks? Data on networks is something real - although you might not realise this is so.
Money is promisory. That is something expected and assumed to be real, where if there is no reality there is assumed to be consequences.
Therefore
"1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible"
Distorts the meaning of money
>>Housing loans don't 'tie-up' capital, but houses do, any assets do, until the asset is sold, the working capital is 'stored' in the asset.
I am not sure what you are getting at. Housing loans tie up very very little capital or at least they did prior to this crisis. Please elaborate
No, currency is promissory, money is a fiction, it represents value and value is intangible. When we were on the gold standard, we could exchange currency for gold, gold was also currency, money is completely fictional, like numbers aren't real, they are convenient though.
For 3, I probably should have said that money is represented as data on networks, data isn't really real, it's a representation of thought's and values, like art, it's difficult to explain, because almost anything I can use as a simile will undoubtedly be a real thing.
For the 'tie-up':
Imagine you are a business owner, your assets are your products, you've paid enormous amount of currency to have an inventory, that you haven't yet sold. Your creditors request you pay them back, you have to sell your products to release their capital, so you can pay your creditors, or they will take whatever you put up as security. (and then sell it, because they don't have any use for things, they want currency)
Housing loans do tie up small amounts of capital, at the beginning, as you pay down the loan, more of the house belongs wholly to you, more of the capital you have used to purchase the asset becomes stored in it over time.
You have a lot more free capital over the time that you have the loan.
But if you default on your loan for whatever reason, the creditor has the legal recourse to sell whatever assets you own to make up the difference of what you owe and with the really big loans that go on houses, its usually the house that gets sold.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry
"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
No, currency is promissory, money is a fiction, it represents value and value is intangible. When we were on the gold standard, we could exchange currency for gold, gold was also currency, money is completely fictional, like numbers aren't real, they are convenient though.
For 3, I probably should have said that money is represented as data on networks, data isn't really real, it's a representation of thought's and values, like art, it's difficult to explain, because almost anything I can use as a simile will undoubtedly be a real thing.
For the 'tie-up':
Imagine you are a business owner, your assets are your products, you've paid enormous amount of currency to have an inventory, that you haven't yet sold. Your creditors request you pay them back, you have to sell your products to release their capital, so you can pay your creditors, or they will take whatever you put up as security. (and then sell it, because they don't have any use for things, they want currency)
Housing loans do tie up small amounts of capital, at the beginning, as you pay down the loan, more of the house belongs wholly to you, more of the capital you have used to purchase the asset becomes stored in it over time.
You have a lot more free capital over the time that you have the loan.
But if you default on your loan for whatever reason, the creditor has the legal recourse to sell whatever assets you own to make up the difference of what you owe and with the really big loans that go on houses, its usually the house that gets sold.
Money cannot be a fiction.
Money is a human construct that represents something real.
Money that does not represent anything real has no value at all.
And when we talk of money we have to recognise there are many moneys
There is a clear implicit promise behind fiat money. Namely that the government will not spend so much money into existance via whatever form that takes, so the point will come where it is impossible to conceive that taxes could ever be sufficiently high, or spending could be sufficiently reduced and the financial system can still survive.
Bank created money has the clear implicit promise that the sum total of borrowers will not do anything to threaten the underlying capital base of the lending institution where the bank is not only creating money from nothing without consequence as if the money created was a fiction and they had no reasonable right to require repayment in full.
Australian Property Forum is an economics and finance forum dedicated to discussion of Australian and global real estate markets and macroeconomics, including house prices, housing affordability, and the likelihood of a property crash. Is there an Australian housing bubble? Will house prices crash, boom or stagnate? Is the Australian property market a pyramid scheme or Ponzi scheme? Can house prices really rise forever? These are the questions we address on Australian Property Forum, the premier real estate site for property bears, bulls, investors, and speculators. Members may also discuss matters related to finance, modern monetary theory (MMT), debt deflation, cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin Ethereum and Ripple, property investing, landlords, tenants, debt consolidation, reverse home equity loans, the housing shortage, negative gearing, capital gains tax, land tax and macro prudential regulation.
Forum Rules:
The main forum may be used to discuss property, politics, economics and finance, precious metals, crypto currency, debt management, generational divides, climate change, sustainability, alternative energy, environmental topics, human rights or social justice issues, and other topics on a case by case basis. Topics unsuitable for the main forum may be discussed in the lounge. You agree you won't use this forum to post material that is illegal, private, defamatory, pornographic, excessively abusive or profane, threatening, or invasive of another forum member's privacy. Don't post NSFW content. Racist or ethnic slurs and homophobic comments aren't tolerated. Accusing forum members of serious crimes is not permitted. Accusations, attacks, abuse or threats, litigious or otherwise, directed against the forum or forum administrators aren't tolerated and will result in immediate suspension of your account for a number of days depending on the severity of the attack. No spamming or advertising in the main forum. Spamming includes repeating the same message over and over again within a short period of time. Don't post ALL CAPS thread titles. The Advertising and Promotion Subforum may be used to promote your Australian property related business or service. Active members of the forum who contribute regularly to main forum discussions may also include a link to their product or service in their signature block. Members are limited to one actively posting account each. A secondary account may be used solely for the purpose of maintaining a blog as long as that account no longer posts in threads. Any member who believes another member has violated these rules may report the offending post using the report button.
Australian Property Forum complies with ASIC Regulatory Guide 162 regarding Internet Discussion Sites. Australian Property Forum is not a provider of financial advice. Australian Property Forum does not in any way endorse the views and opinions of its members, nor does it vouch for for the accuracy or authenticity of their posts. It is not permitted for any Australian Property Forum member to post in the role of a licensed financial advisor or to post as the representative of a financial advisor. It is not permitted for Australian Property Forum members to ask for or offer specific buy, sell or hold recommendations on particular stocks, as a response to a request of this nature may be considered the provision of financial advice.
Views expressed on this forum are not representative of the forum owners. The forum owners are not liable or responsible for comments posted. Information posted does not constitute financial or legal advice. The forum owners accept no liability for information posted, nor for consequences of actions taken on the basis of that information. By visiting or using this forum, members and guests agree to be bound by the Zetaboards Terms of Use.
This site may contain copyright material (i.e. attributed snippets from online news reports), the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Such content is posted to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democratic, scientific, and social justice issues. This constitutes 'fair use' of such copyright material as provided for in section 107 of US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed for research and educational purposes only. If you wish to use this material for purposes that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Such material is credited to the true owner or licensee. We will remove from the forum any such material upon the request of the owners of the copyright of said material, as we claim no credit for such material.
Privacy Policy: Australian Property Forum uses third party advertising companies to serve ads when you visit our site. These third party advertising companies may collect and use information about your visits to Australian Property Forum as well as other web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services of interest to you. If you would like more information about this practice and to know your choices about not having this information used by these companies, click here: Google Advertising Privacy FAQ
Australian Property Forum is hosted by Zetaboards. Please refer also to the Zetaboards Privacy Policy