I was tempted some times to have second thoughts about you that you weren't an idiot.
Oh well, take care being miserable.
Newjerk? can you try harder than dig up another person's blog. My first promo was with Billabong and my name in English is modified with a T, am Perth born but also lived in Sydney to make my $$ It's Absolutely Fabulous if it includes brilliant locations, & high calibre tenants..what more does one want? Understand the power of the two "P"" or be financially challenged Even better when there is family who are property mad and one is born in some entitlements.....Understand that beautiful women are the exhibitionists we crave attention, whilst hot blooded men are the voyeurs ... A stunning woman can command and takes pleasure in being noticed. Seems not too many understand what it means to hold and own props and get threatened by those who do. Banks are considered to be law abiding and & rather boring places yeah not true . A bank balance sheet will show capital is dwarfed by their liabilities this means when a portions of loans is falling its problems for the bank.
Agreed, she reads like a drunken amalgamation of all the most cringeworthy and clichéd lines from those self help texts that litter every second-hand bookstore.
Do you know what is your trouble Mr Tortured Soul?
Maybe you have told everyone you know about your grand plan to swoop in and profit from a housing crash, maybe you have told them that only idiots borrowed to buy homes, perhaps you have also told them you are smarter than them and you are waiting for lower prices, you may even have told them debt is in a bubble, house prices are in a bubble, Australia is no different from Ireland and whatever other nonsense you may have gleamed from what you thought were trendy alternative political internet sites. (in fact these sites were just using the old doom and gloom dream-making money-making model that crawls out of the woodwork at economic downturns)
Maybe you have been telling these tales for too many years, now perhaps you see your mates getting richer, you can see that the houses your peers bought a few years ago are too expensive for you now and you know what, you are no longer just a tortured soul, YOU ARE ANGRY.
So you hurl abuse at posters on here who have no malice whatsoever towards you.
Why don't you lighten up a bit and lose the teenage angst image, then you may avoid people giving you back your sanctimonious putdowns.
Definition of a doom and gloomer from 1993 The last camp is made up of the doom-and-gloomers. Their slogan is "it's the end of the world as we know it". Right now they are convinced that debt is the evil responsible for all our economic woes and must be eliminated at all cost. Many doom-and-gloomers believe that unprecedented debt levels mean that we are on the precipice of a worse crisis than the Great Depression. The doom-and-gloomers hang on the latest series of negative economic data.
Ooooooohhh timo You don't know what you're missing out, you extreme teddy bear.
Go get some competent tax advice, so that NG can be effective but it's NOT GONNA SUIT EVERYONE 1 size does not fit all, understand every itsy bitty tax deduction.
For some fortunate people who have a high taxable income & a home that's paid off, well it makes sense financially to NG an IP dumb de dumbs.
The magic is when you reach the gold star level of positive geared status...well the tenants is paying sweetly to the true cost of having the privilege to live in my properties....
Happy days timo...or keep renting.
Ok sure Blondie I get that, I realise that NG allows seriously wealthy people to offset some of their losses when leveraging up with larger investments in property, and that it was introduced to add liquidity to the rental market in order to lighten the tax burden for social housing, and I also know what Margaret Lomas is getting at when she calls NG an 'outcome' but not a 'strategy'.
The problem I see is that everyone is getting in to the game: if I recall correctly the average income for a negatively geared investor is about 80k, that's not much of a tax buffer should rents decrease through increasing unemployment (like they are for my parent's once cash-flow neutral IO property near the Cadia-Ridgeway mine in Orange) or interest rates go up. All these collective 'outcomes' could force a really ugly outcome at the macro level.
"It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of opinion that makes horse races." - Mark Twain on why he avoids discussing house prices over at MacroBusiness. "Buy land, they're not making any more of it." - Georgist Land Tax proponent Mark Twain laughing in his grave at humourless idiots like skamy that continually use this quip to justify housing bubbles.
Deflecting hey? Billions WASTED on NG, while huge chunks of Australia sold to the highest bidder to fund a struggling industry. It's sick, and your apart of it.
deflecting would be your refusal to answer for your crimes.
I am the love child of Tony Abbott and Pauline Hanson
Ok sure Blondie I get that, I realise that NG allows seriously wealthy people to offset some of their losses when leveraging up with larger investments in property, and that it was introduced to add liquidity to the rental market in order to lighten the tax burden for social housing, and I also know what Margaret Lomas is getting at when she calls NG an 'outcome' but not a 'strategy'.
The problem I see is that everyone is getting in to the game: if I recall correctly the average income for a negatively geared investor is about 80k, that's not much of a tax buffer should rents decrease through increasing unemployment (like they are for my parent's once cash-flow neutral IO property near the Cadia-Ridgeway mine in Orange) or interest rates go up. All these collective 'outcomes' could force a really ugly outcome at the macro level.
There is a possibility that too much super ends up in property and there is always the problem that down the track prices will inflate unsustainably if too many investors compete at the low end of the market.
However, if you look at it from the point of view of the people who are doing this, their reasons are logical. 1. They watched their super funds plummet during the downturn, some of it will never return. 2. Throughout their lives they have observed that property never looses over the long term. 3. If you are in your 50s, you can see that in 10 years you can have a positively geared investment to support your retirement that looks much more appealing than relying on interest rates on savings (which you can see has not been good for the generation retiring at the moment)
You know it is my view that house prices are emerging from a downturn and this is usually a time in the cycle for a large level of interest from investors, so it will be interesting to watch if this cycle returns to normal levels of FHBs or if there has been a fundamental change. Normally FHB will inflate prices and rents will drop as renters move into their own homes. This makes the investors returns reduce and the investors reduce their activity in the market.
If the market does not return to normal then I will be on the same page as you in understanding the need to increase taxes on investors.
Definition of a doom and gloomer from 1993 The last camp is made up of the doom-and-gloomers. Their slogan is "it's the end of the world as we know it". Right now they are convinced that debt is the evil responsible for all our economic woes and must be eliminated at all cost. Many doom-and-gloomers believe that unprecedented debt levels mean that we are on the precipice of a worse crisis than the Great Depression. The doom-and-gloomers hang on the latest series of negative economic data.
Do you know what is your trouble Mr Tortured Soul?
Maybe you have told everyone you know about your grand plan to swoop in and profit from a housing crash, maybe you have told them that only idiots borrowed to buy homes, perhaps you have also told them you are smarter than them and you are waiting for lower prices, you may even have told them debt is in a bubble, house prices are in a bubble, Australia is no different from Ireland and whatever other nonsense you may have gleamed from what you thought were trendy alternative political internet sites. (in fact these sites were just using the old doom and gloom dream-making money-making model that crawls out of the woodwork at economic downturns)
Maybe you have been telling these tales for too many years, now perhaps you see your mates getting richer, you can see that the houses your peers bought a few years ago are too expensive for you now and you know what, you are no longer just a tortured soul, YOU ARE ANGRY.
So you hurl abuse at posters on here who have no malice whatsoever towards you.
Why don't you lighten up a bit and lose the teenage angst image, then you may avoid people giving you back your sanctimonious putdowns.
I think you misread me Skamy - I'm not jealous of people who make money out of property, and unlike some bears I try not to resort to the 'moral' argument. I have no problem with property investment as a profession, like I said my parents have several properties, with differing leverage amounts and cash-flow outcomes, and I appreciate that a lot of their hard effort and pain at the moment are in part to leave me and my siblings with a secure financial future, I would sound like a dopey trustafarian if I criticized it too much
But let's face it, it's not primarily the micro issues of managing property that people come to APF to discuss - it's the big picture, and that's where I think we're screwed - this country like so many others in the West have painted themselves into a corner trying to promise too much to too many people over decades - better wages, fatter pensions, and home ownership. There are now expectations that are impossible to fulfil: even when the machine froze up we just chose to ignore it and carried on printing money - except now we use 'currency wars' to externalise domestic inflation. It's almost like a game of chicken where we're waiting for one country to buckle up under the weight of it's own debt in the hope that it will save the others.
So to me property investment is just the most obvious manifestation of this global problem - that somehow prices will keep rising along with the wages needed to service the mortgages, and we'll all live happily ever after. The whole idea that people can discuss economic cycles in wake of the massive black swan that sailed in five years ago is just a joke, why do you think the Kouk is such a laughing stock.
"It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of opinion that makes horse races." - Mark Twain on why he avoids discussing house prices over at MacroBusiness. "Buy land, they're not making any more of it." - Georgist Land Tax proponent Mark Twain laughing in his grave at humourless idiots like skamy that continually use this quip to justify housing bubbles.
There is a possibility that too much super ends up in property and there is always the problem that down the track prices will inflate unsustainably if too many investors compete at the low end of the market.
However, if you look at it from the point of view of the people who are doing this, their reasons are logical. 1. They watched their super funds plummet during the downturn, some of it will never return. 2. Throughout their lives they have observed that property never looses over the long term. 3. If you are in your 50s, you can see that in 10 years you can have a positively geared investment to support your retirement that looks much more appealing than relying on interest rates on savings (which you can see has not been good for the generation retiring at the moment)
You know it is my view that house prices are emerging from a downturn and this is usually a time in the cycle for a large level of interest from investors, so it will be interesting to watch if this cycle returns to normal levels of FHBs or if there has been a fundamental change. Normally FHB will inflate prices and rents will drop as renters move into their own homes. This makes the investors returns reduce and the investors reduce their activity in the market.
If the market does not return to normal then I will be on the same page as you in understanding the need to increase taxes on investors.
I can totally see the reason that people in their 40's and 50's look to property as an investment, but it's the effect of them collectively with this 'hunt for yield' that's forcing a lot of people into risky investments i.e. stocks and property. The effect of this is to create a feedback loop whereby people buy more property and pay more money for it, banks make more money from larger loans and hand out larger dividends, investors get bigger dividends and throw more money into property. It creates a completely lopsided and unstable economy.
"It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of opinion that makes horse races." - Mark Twain on why he avoids discussing house prices over at MacroBusiness. "Buy land, they're not making any more of it." - Georgist Land Tax proponent Mark Twain laughing in his grave at humourless idiots like skamy that continually use this quip to justify housing bubbles.
You have both made some valid points, NG has its uses IF it's used suitably. Serious problems do eventuate when some people dont know what they are doing.
Yes Soul, a lot of us want to know the "big picture" & we all need to be aware of the implications, because it does affect us, we are all continuously learning. Our most seasoned posters cannot give us all the answers, but I do try have realism & keep it in perspective.
The impact of the low interest rates is not providing improvements in the Oz economy, because homeowners are taking advantage to reduce their debt. The $ invested retirees do suffer a reduced disposable income. It makes sense to be trying to decrease the debt rather than go on a spending spree, so retail suffers.
What is in a lot of our thoughts is... So, are we in for a period of below average growth, followed by a period of above average growth as global conditions improve? Markets do go up & down. ..
Is China really a sinking ship, will it continue to expand? , I'm quite skeptical about the talk of bubbles, the govt is planning for better opportunities I think.
Newjerk? can you try harder than dig up another person's blog. My first promo was with Billabong and my name in English is modified with a T, am Perth born but also lived in Sydney to make my $$ It's Absolutely Fabulous if it includes brilliant locations, & high calibre tenants..what more does one want? Understand the power of the two "P"" or be financially challenged Even better when there is family who are property mad and one is born in some entitlements.....Understand that beautiful women are the exhibitionists we crave attention, whilst hot blooded men are the voyeurs ... A stunning woman can command and takes pleasure in being noticed. Seems not too many understand what it means to hold and own props and get threatened by those who do. Banks are considered to be law abiding and & rather boring places yeah not true . A bank balance sheet will show capital is dwarfed by their liabilities this means when a portions of loans is falling its problems for the bank.
After a bubble has burst, no one denies that it existed. But before it does, the popular refrain is that though bubbles existed elsewhere in the world, “there’s no bubble here”. So housing bubbles are admitted to have existed in Japan, the USA, Spain and Ireland – because they’ve already burst.
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