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NSW Libs to destroy planning laws in favour of developers
Topic Started: 11 Sep 2013, 11:15 PM (4,969 Views)
genX
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barns
14 Sep 2013, 07:56 AM
No matter what you say politicians and and thier minions will get in the way. Also people will resort to the courts if it comes to that. They can't even get a development approved and built on a development site in Rozelle at present.

Politicians will side with those that make the most noise and screw with things.

The economics flows from this. Uncertainty and delay mean that funding will be difficult or impossible to obtain.

When it comes to parks and open spaces in their neighbourhood people will rally against this.

Let me know when 1 of these occurs.
The State Govt can and has sacked councils, overruled planning decisions by councils (Ku-ring-gai for example). If the current government wanted to, they could dissolve the LEC, sack any council that wants to play hard ball, rezone any land that does not have a perpetual covenant.

Those making the most noise are the property developers, and now that the mining boom is coming to an end, the only game in town is construction. Manufacturing, gone. Retail, getting killed by the internet and high wages. That pretty much leaves construction, financial services and government, all of which points to a boom in residential construction. But Australians are too stupid to build roads or rail infrastructure, so that eliminates the western suburbs, and leaves the inner city. Get ready for it, because it is coming, like it or not.

Either it happens now, or we get to 11% unemployment and people will be begging for this to happen, and anyone that gets in the way will be sacrificed at the alter of 'the economy'. Could go either way.

peter fraser
14 Sep 2013, 08:27 AM
You might be interested in a recent study in the USA that created an index of court actions protesting land use against the supply of property. Nimbyism prevents a normal supply response. I remember developers warning of this when the green legislation began years ago.

one of the findings of the study were-

I haven't had time to read the report in full, so perhaps there are some points that I've overlooked.

the full report is here - http://eyeonhousing.wordpress.com/2013/09/12/new-index-shows-regulation-high-in-new-england-pacific-states/
Interesting. Maine and New Hampshire are blue states, while Alabama and Louisiana are red states. And guess what, NSW now has a red government.

The LEC has been mixed in it's decisions, although probably more left than right. I haven't looked into how Justices are appointed, I think the Commissioner is appointed by the AG, so it is probably a political appointment.

I've never seen the right-wing loons so giddy as after the election. With a LNP government in the NSW State Parliament and in Federal Government, I think they are expecting something akin to the wild west of unbridled capitalism in the coming years.
Edited by genX, 14 Sep 2013, 05:59 PM.
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Bardon
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stinkbug
14 Sep 2013, 05:45 PM
How did they get it through Bardon?

Hey with the powers invested in me I would love to free up NSW from its 99.5% stranglehold in gas supply, but where can I do this thing, I am ready and willing to do it?



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barns
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genX
14 Sep 2013, 05:48 PM
The State Govt can and has sacked councils, overruled planning decisions by councils (Ku-ring-gai for example). If the current government wanted to, they could dissolve the LEC, sack any council that wants to play hard ball, rezone any land that does not have a perpetual covenant.

Those making the most noise are the property developers, and now that the mining boom is coming to an end, the only game in town is construction. Manufacturing, gone. Retail, getting killed by the internet and high wages. That pretty much leaves construction, financial services and government, all of which points to a boom in residential construction. But Australians are too stupid to build roads or rail infrastructure, so that eliminates the western suburbs, and leaves the inner city. Get ready for it, because it is coming, like it or not.

Either it happens now, or we get to 11% unemployment and people will be begging for this to happen, and anyone that gets in the way will be sacrificed at the alter of 'the economy'. Could go either way.


Interesting. Maine and New Hampshire are blue states, while Alabama and Louisiana are red states. And guess what, NSW now has a red government.

The LEC has been mixed in it's decisions, although probably more left than right. I haven't looked into how Justices are appointed, I think the Commissioner is appointed by the AG, so it is probably a political appointment.

I've never seen the right-wing loons so giddy as after the election. With a LNP government in the NSW State Parliament and in Federal Government, I think they are expecting something akin to the wild west of unbridled capitalism in the coming years.
You must live in oppositeland as each of your points is inverse to reality.
“You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means” - Inigo Montoya
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genX
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barns
14 Sep 2013, 11:08 PM
You must live in oppositeland as each of your points is inverse to reality.
Posted Image

I must be colour blind also.

Maybe I need to put on my champagne socialist glasses
Posted Image
so I can see the world through the eyes of an inner-city metrosexual hipster.
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barns
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genX
14 Sep 2013, 05:48 PM
The State Govt can and has sacked councils, overruled planning decisions by councils (Ku-ring-gai for example). If the current government wanted to, they could dissolve the LEC, sack any council that wants to play hard ball, rezone any land that does not have a perpetual covenant.

Those making the most noise are the property developers, and now that the mining boom is coming to an end, the only game in town is construction. Manufacturing, gone. Retail, getting killed by the internet and high wages. That pretty much leaves construction, financial services and government, all of which points to a boom in residential construction. But Australians are too stupid to build roads or rail infrastructure, so that eliminates the western suburbs, and leaves the inner city. Get ready for it, because it is coming, like it or not.

Either it happens now, or we get to 11% unemployment and people will be begging for this to happen, and anyone that gets in the way will be sacrificed at the alter of 'the economy'. Could go either way.


Interesting. Maine and New Hampshire are blue states, while Alabama and Louisiana are red states. And guess what, NSW now has a red government.

The LEC has been mixed in it's decisions, although probably more left than right. I haven't looked into how Justices are appointed, I think the Commissioner is appointed by the AG, so it is probably a political appointment.

I've never seen the right-wing loons so giddy as after the election. With a LNP government in the NSW State Parliament and in Federal Government, I think they are expecting something akin to the wild west of unbridled capitalism in the coming years.
Ku-ring-gai is not inner city. There is lots of space for development up there. It's marked as a development corridor and has been for years.

Property developers don't make the most noise. They make some noise but if it gets too hard they pack up their tent and move to a new site where they don't get so much opposition. The people that make the most noise are the local residents and the wealthier and more established the suburb is the noisier they are. If they are particularly wealthy they will fight the developer and council in the LEC. Councils and developers don't like burning money this way as it's only money to them in the first place so they have no stomach for a fight. Some less established areas such as ex-industrial zones like Alexandria, Green Square etc will fold as their residents are blow-ins anyway. Developers will develop where it is cheapest and easiest to make a buck - they are not going to have a 10 year fight to demolish a row of Paddington Terraces. Middle ring ex-commercial sites and cities fringes are where 95% of construction will occur.

Sydney's geographical spread is a historical construct as the city 'took-off' after the invention and mass adoption of the motor car. It's never going to be built up like some old world cities or some more modern planned cities. It's just too late for that.

There is no reason why the construction boom will not occur in the middle ring ex-commercial sites and cities fringes. No reason for unemployment to go to 11%. No reason to sacrifice people at the altar.

I have no idea why you are talking about blue and red US States.

As you point out the LEC has historically sided with residents, conservatism and finding a reason not to allow a development in the face of local opposition. Appointees come from the ranks of wealthy barristers (predominately) and wouldn't like 'x" happening in their suburb either.

Abbott has been made out by the left to be an extreme right bigot but I believe that this will be a very centreist Liberal government with caucus leading policy rather than just the PM (quite different to recent ALP and the 'real' Abbott may be more moderate than the picture that has been painted).

The NSW State Liberal government has pretty much achieved nothing since being elected.


“You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means” - Inigo Montoya
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genX
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barns
16 Sep 2013, 10:46 AM
Ku-ring-gai is not inner city. There is lots of space for development up there. It's marked as a development corridor and has been for years.

Property developers don't make the most noise. They make some noise but if it gets too hard they pack up their tent and move to a new site where they don't get so much opposition. The people that make the most noise are the local residents and the wealthier and more established the suburb is the noisier they are. If they are particularly wealthy they will fight the developer and council in the LEC. Councils and developers don't like burning money this way as it's only money to them in the first place so they have no stomach for a fight. Some less established areas such as ex-industrial zones like Alexandria, Green Square etc will fold as their residents are blow-ins anyway. Developers will develop where it is cheapest and easiest to make a buck - they are not going to have a 10 year fight to demolish a row of Paddington Terraces. Middle ring ex-commercial sites and cities fringes are where 95% of construction will occur.

Sydney's geographical spread is a historical construct as the city 'took-off' after the invention and mass adoption of the motor car. It's never going to be built up like some old world cities or some more modern planned cities. It's just too late for that.

There is no reason why the construction boom will not occur in the middle ring ex-commercial sites and cities fringes. No reason for unemployment to go to 11%. No reason to sacrifice people at the altar.


Wow, that's the most verbose I've seen you be.

Yeah there is lots of space for development at Ku-ring-gai, it's called National Park. No different from inner city parks.

Why not just infill every industrial site in Sydney. It's not like we need them. The economy is going to be buying, selling and constructing houses and the millions of financial service flunkies that goes with the financing of such activity. Actually making stuff is an anachronism.

Developers will develop anywhere once the boom starts. If neither the state nor federal government has the balls to push these changes through, dissolve the LEC, fire non-compliant councils, then existing property prices in Sydney will explode. Double digit growth for at least another 3 years barring a hard landing in China or another meltdown in the US/Europe. This is equally destructive to the economy, so as an outcome it is as good as high density redevelopment destruction of the city anyway.

There are no 'ex-commercial' sites in the middle ring. They are all being used for commercial purposes right now. Are you suggesting the government will rezone the land and forcibly move those businesses? That would be interesting. Basically you would move the majority of employment centers out of the city. Why would anyone live in the residences that replaced these commercial centers if they were no longer close to any employment?

As for it being too late to build up Sydney. Well, you should have seen Hong Kong in the 1960s. It wasn't very built up and there were very few tall buildings. Now, it's a different story.

There was an inflection point 2 years ago. We could have taken another road, tightened our belts, let interest rates rise a little to encourage capital formation, worked through the excess leverage and rebalanced the economy. But that road was not taken, and now it is too late.
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Abbott has been made out by the left to be an extreme right bigot but I believe that this will be a very centreist Liberal government with caucus leading policy rather than just the PM (quite different to recent ALP and the 'real' Abbott may be more moderate than the picture that has been painted).

The NSW State Liberal government has pretty much achieved nothing since being elected.
How long after Abbott was sworn in did he sack 3 department secretaries? Doesn't sound very moderate or centrist to me. He wasn't even sworn in before he was talking about making unconstitutional changes to the Senate by fiat. No, I don't think this will be a centrist or moderate government. I think this will be the government Australians deserve.
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I have no idea why you are talking about blue and red US States.
Because I was replying to Peter Fraser's post maybe?
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themoops
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barns
16 Sep 2013, 10:46 AM
Ku-ring-gai is not inner city. There is lots of space for development up there. It's marked as a development corridor and has been for years.

Property developers don't make the most noise. They make some noise but if it gets too hard they pack up their tent and move to a new site where they don't get so much opposition. The people that make the most noise are the local residents and the wealthier and more established the suburb is the noisier they are. If they are particularly wealthy they will fight the developer and council in the LEC. Councils and developers don't like burning money this way as it's only money to them in the first place so they have no stomach for a fight. Some less established areas such as ex-industrial zones like Alexandria, Green Square etc will fold as their residents are blow-ins anyway. Developers will develop where it is cheapest and easiest to make a buck - they are not going to have a 10 year fight to demolish a row of Paddington Terraces. Middle ring ex-commercial sites and cities fringes are where 95% of construction will occur.

Sydney's geographical spread is a historical construct as the city 'took-off' after the invention and mass adoption of the motor car. It's never going to be built up like some old world cities or some more modern planned cities. It's just too late for that.

There is no reason why the construction boom will not occur in the middle ring ex-commercial sites and cities fringes. No reason for unemployment to go to 11%. No reason to sacrifice people at the altar.

I have no idea why you are talking about blue and red US States.

As you point out the LEC has historically sided with residents, conservatism and finding a reason not to allow a development in the face of local opposition. Appointees come from the ranks of wealthy barristers (predominately) and wouldn't like 'x" happening in their suburb either.

Abbott has been made out by the left to be an extreme right bigot but I believe that this will be a very centreist Liberal government with caucus leading policy rather than just the PM (quite different to recent ALP and the 'real' Abbott may be more moderate than the picture that has been painted).

The NSW State Liberal government has pretty much achieved nothing since being elected.

As I said before Lane Cove was set up for a massive amount of development by the previous Labor government. When the Libs got in, they repealed it a bit.

But the fact is it got through. :bye:

But I'd say the Libs will attack the Inner West and the like, and I can't wait because you're a bunch of dirty hypocrite wankers! :lol

I think Abbott has to be a bit of a hard man if he wants to see 2-3 terms, otherwise people will think meh, we'll just go back to a wishy washy Labor government, and at least we would have had the NBN.

Sydney won't be built up? Bull shit. Something like 30% of people live in apartments already. THat's all our economy has to run on, grow and hope. We're too retarded and greedy to do real work or just rest on our laurels and go back to the good old days.

Aw man I can't wait for you to have a massive unit block built next door to you. :lol
stinkbug omosessuale


Frank Castle is a liar and a criminal. He will often deliberately take people out of context and use straw man arguments.
Frank finally and unintentionally gives it up and admits he got where he is, primarily via dumb luck!
See here
Property will be 50-70% off by 2016.
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Dr Kinetoscope
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There is actually plenty of space in the Inner city - especially in the likes of Alexandria, St Peters, Redfern, Botany - that will be redeveloped. There are numerous post industrial sites in these suburbs that are very very attractive to residential developers. Many locations are lying dormant and where heritage values and resident objections are far less of a concern.

Places like Glebe and Paddington? Of course not.

Throw the development plans for the Central Station area and along Parramatta Rd in the mix, and there is a lot of supply to come onto the inner city market over the next 10 years, which in my opinion will keep a rein on values more than Barnes would like - especially if combined with stagnating income increases.

High density planning in the middle and outer rings of the city (i.e Ryde, Liverpool) - especially with Sydney's poor transport - is the height of stupidity in a city of our enourmous georgraphical size, and if the planners have their way this will not happen to any great extent.
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genX
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Dr Kinetoscope
22 Sep 2013, 11:18 AM
There is actually plenty of space in the Inner city - especially in the likes of Alexandria, St Peters, Redfern, Botany - that will be redeveloped. There are numerous post industrial sites in these suburbs that are very very attractive to residential developers. Many locations are lying dormant and where heritage values and resident objections are far less of a concern.
Yes, and most of those areas are under flight paths that (a) you can't build tall buildings in and (b) nobody would want to live. That's why something like Sydney Park would be perfect. It is on the non-flight path side of the Princess Hwy, is just going to waste as grass and bike paths, costs money to maintain, and could comfortably fit a residential apartment complex of 10,000 people.
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Places like Glebe and Paddington? Of course not.
Why not? There is plenty of green space to get started in. Victoria Barracks in Paddington and Wentworth and Bi-centennial Park in Glebe for starters. The key is to get the process started. Once the high-rises start going up, the NIMBY hipsters will see the writing on the wall and move out. Sure there will be some protests, but it's not like Australia is a participative democracy, it is a representative one, and our currently elected government represents rich people who don't live in the inner west.
Quote:
 
Throw the development plans for the Central Station area and along Parramatta Rd in the mix, and there is a lot of supply to come onto the inner city market over the next 10 years, which in my opinion will keep a rein on values more than Barnes would like - especially if combined with stagnating income increases.
I don't think Parramatta Rd will happen, but Surry Hills near Central is a good candidate, as is Belmore and Ward Park. Redfern Park would be an excellent candidate also. Waste of space that park. And let's not forget Moore Park, WTF is that used for?
Quote:
 
High density planning in the middle and outer rings of the city (i.e Ryde, Liverpool) - especially with Sydney's poor transport - is the height of stupidity in a city of our enourmous georgraphical size, and if the planners have their way this will not happen to any great extent.
Agreed, although stupidity always seems to be the first choice for NSW state govts, if not their planning departments.
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Dr Kinetoscope
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genX
22 Sep 2013, 11:46 AM
Yes, and most of those areas are under flight paths that (a) you can't build tall buildings in and (b) nobody would want to live. That's why something like Sydney Park would be perfect. It is on the non-flight path side of the Princess Hwy, is just going to waste as grass and bike paths, costs money to maintain, and could comfortably fit a residential apartment complex of 10,000 people.

Why not? There is plenty of green space to get started in. Victoria Barracks in Paddington and Wentworth and Bi-centennial Park in Glebe for starters. The key is to get the process started. Once the high-rises start going up, the NIMBY hipsters will see the writing on the wall and move out. Sure there will be some protests, but it's not like Australia is a participative democracy, it is a representative one, and our currently elected government represents rich people who don't live in the inner west.

I don't think Parramatta Rd will happen, but Surry Hills near Central is a good candidate, as is Belmore and Ward Park. Redfern Park would be an excellent candidate also. Waste of space that park. And let's not forget Moore Park, WTF is that used for?

Agreed, although stupidity always seems to be the first choice for NSW state govts, if not their planning departments.
Leichardt, Newtown and Enmore are smack bang in the middle of the northern flight path, yet they are immensly popular. St. Peters, Botany and Mascot are among the ones with height restrictions, but this wouldn't prevent 3 or 4 story terraces/townhouse construction. We should be aiming for modernised versions of this in much of inner Sydney:

Posted Image

These are the best compromise for density v liveability, and in places with wider streets they prevent too much overshadowing. An approach such as this is perfect for the likes of St Peters, Botany, Mascot, Zetland, Beaconsfield, Alexandria IF supported by appropriate public transport, which would be viable with the density these would bring.

I don't agree with filling in of the parks. Green spaces such as these are critical to social wellbeing. Can you image New York city without Central Park? London without Regents Park, Hyde Park, Battersea Park? I'm not a fan of Sydneys nimbys at all, but the little parkland we have should be off limits.
However, If there were a way to snatch back the huge tract of fenced off land that the The Lakes and The Australian gold clubs sit on, that would go a long way to solving a lot of problems and I would be all for it. I wonder if they are still owned by the Commonwealth but are on a lease agreement to the clubs?
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