The Syria Thread: Momentum building for Western military strike against Syria; President Bashar Assad's government responsible for chemical attack on civilians outside Damascus
Tweet Topic Started: 28 Aug 2013, 03:51 PM (5,676 Views)
Russia's military might has increased considerably although they are still second to the US. I wouldn't say anything is funny about your button pushing scenario though. We are talking about normal people dying here.
You might want to brush up on military power, Russia is far from 2nd place. China is in 2nd place. The US leads China by a large margin and then China leads the rest by a large margin. Russia is a distant 3rd at best and most of its military is out-dated.
Black Panther
7 Sep 2013, 01:17 PM
The Sunburn Missile
I was shocked when I learned the facts about these Russian-made cruise missiles. The problem is that so many of us suffer from two common misperceptions. The first follows from our assumption that Russia is militarily weak, as a result of the breakup of the old Soviet system. Actually, this is accurate, but it does not reflect the complexities. Although the Russian navy continues to rust in port, and the Russian army is in disarray, in certain key areas Russian technology is actually superior to our own. And nowhere is this truer than in the vital area of anti-ship cruise missile technology, where the Russians hold at least a ten-year lead over the US. The second misperception has to do with our complacency in general about missiles-as-weapons probably attributable to the pathetic performance of Saddam Hussein's Scuds during the first Gulf war: a dangerous illusion that I will now attempt to rectify.
I wont quote everything as it is to large. I generally agree the sunburn missile is a threat but an out-dated threat. The larger threat is the Yakhont missile which is Russias most advanced anti ship missile and far more formidable then the sunburn which is out-dated 1970s & 80s technology.
While these missiles are a threat and no doubt would sink some ships if used is large numbers. This however is not an unknown threat and has been planned for by the US Military since the 1980s. The Soviet Union planned to use mass attacks by Tu-22 Backfire and Tu-160 Blackjack bombers to launch saturated anti ship missile attacks on the US Navy Carrier Battle Groups. The US Navy has multiple layers of defence around its fleets to defend against just such threats.
While Media sensationalism is great to increase the Navies budget is bares little to reality. While the Navy has many defences which may or may not successfully intercept these missiles the biggest threat to missiles is electronic warfare. For an anti ship missiles to be successful it needs tracking data to home in on its target, that data is relayed to it via a ground station or satellite, all can be jammed. Even if the missile has its own on-board sensors which are used for the final phase of attack those two can be jammed, disrupted. So it is not just a physical intercept which can destroy missiles but the electronic attack.
To give you an example of just how powerful electronic warfare has become look to Syria in 2007 when that mysterious Nuclear plant was destroyed deep inside Syria.
Quote:
The main attack was preceded by an engagement with a single Syrian radar site at Tall al-Abuad near the Turkish border. It was assaulted with what appears to be a combination of electronic attack and precision bombs to enable the Israeli force to enter and exit Syrian airspace. Almost immediately, the entire Syrian radar system went off the air for a period of time that included the raid, say U.S. intelligence analysts.
…U.S. analysts contend that network penetration involved both remote air-to-ground electronic attack and penetration through computer-to-computer links.
…So far, the most sophisticated example of nonkinetic warfare is the penetration of Syrian air defenses by Israeli aircraft on Sept. 6 to bomb a site—analyzed as a nascent nuclear facility—without being engaged or even detected.
…That ability of nonstealthy Israeli aircraft to penetrate without interference rests in part on technology, carried on board modified aircraft, that allowed specialists to hack into Syria’s networked air defense system, said U.S. military and industry officials in the attack’s aftermath. Network raiders can conduct their invasion from an aircraft into a network and then jump from network to network until they are into the target’s communications loop.
From what I have heard and I did come across the code name of the electronic weapon system used but it escapes me now. The US air to ground electronic warfare capability which can hack, jam and take control of weapon systems such as Radar systems. Not only did the US take complete control of Syrias Air Defences for the duration of the attack it rendered all of Syrias airspace defenceless as the Syrian military was blind.
Syria is considered to have a formidable air defence network. Thanks to electronic warfare non stealthy Israeli warplanes penetrated deep into Syria and destroyed its nuclear reactor without losing a plan let alone getting shot at.
This is just a real world and recent example of how powerful electronic warfare has become. The US has decades lead over either Russia and more so China in this area. The US long ago understood it could not shoot down every missile and to do so would be expensive and some missiles always get through. So how do you combat mass or sneak attack by fast moving missiles, be it anti ship or cruise missiles for land attack. Electronic warfare is the best and most cost effective option.
To first launch an anti ship missile you need to track the enemy ship, most likely via radar which gives out an emission source which can be detected. This can be jammed or hacked. You can use Drones which can also be jammed or destroyed. Satellites which can also be jammed or destroyed. A ship is a moving target so you need constant tracking in order to hit it, even if fired from close range such as the Persian gulf. The on-board radar or sensors can be jammed it is signals also reveal its location and direction of attack. All of these are none as the kill phase.
What the lessons of the early 80s proved to the US navy was if you can detect the missile you can nearly always kill it, if it remains undetected it becomes most difficult to stop unless your close in weapons systems react fast enough. Due to US superiority in electronic warfare nearly no missile will ever be launched and remain undetected via radar or heat signature and the electronic emissions generated. The lessons of some 25 years ago have been learnt and applied.
The greatest threat to the US navy is no anti ship missiles but quiet subs.
You may also recall all the talk of the Chinese DF-21 Anti Ship Ballistic Missile which can attack ships at extreme range 1500-2500km. While it may be possible to launch missiles at that range to track and hit a moving target at such long distance is unlikely.
The same process applies as the above kill chain except ballistic missiles are far easier to detect and track. The US fleet has SM-3 anti ballistic missiles which can shoot them down at extreme range. The US used an SM-3 missile to shoot down a satellite from a navy ship highlighting its capability and range. The Chinese would also have to over come the many layers of defence in the pacific from anti missile systems in Japan, Okinawa, Guam and avoid these areas which is almost impossible in any war. The US has and can deployed THAAD (theatre area air defence) systems which is a smaller brother of SM-3 and used by the US army for ballistic missile or tactical missile defence. You also have upgrade Patriot defence which is a point defence close range anti missile system. The Navy also has Rim-116 missiles which come in launchers of 21 missiles and home in on the radar or heat signature of anti-ship cruise missiles. SeaRam which is just entering service combines the Phalanx Gatling gun with upgraded Rim-116 missiles to provide an autonomous system, meaning it defends the ship and responds without human interaction or guidance. SeaRam is designed to provide a multilayered close in point defence system, missiles fire to intercept, if they fail the Gatling gun spits out 4,500 20mm rounds per minute with an effective range of 3.6km.
So while I agree anti ship missiles are dangerous and pose a significant threat, they are hardly with out counter measures and can be defended against.
You might want to brush up on military power, Russia is far from 2nd place. China is in 2nd place. The US leads China by a large margin and then China leads the rest by a large margin. Russia is a distant 3rd at best and most of its military is out-dated.
Well I beg to differ on both counts. Russia is a clear and rising second. They have also been adding massively to their military capability in recent years the best example being their near silent submarines which outclass anything in the US.
Well I beg to differ on both counts. Russia is a clear and rising second. They have also been adding massively to their military capability in recent years the best example being their near silent submarines which outclass anything in the US.
Now go look at the breakdown of military forces between China and Russia. China has a big lead in nearly all categories of military hardware. On top of this Chinese weapons are mostly more advanced or in greater numbers of modern equipment as China spend about $160 billion a year vs $90 billion a year for Russia. Only Russias nuclear weapons which is a cold war left over keeps Russia in the big game, other then that Russia is a 2nd rate power just like France, UK, Germany.
Now go look at the breakdown of military forces between China and Russia. China has a big lead in nearly all categories of military hardware. On top of this Chinese weapons are mostly more advanced or in greater numbers of modern equipment as China spend about $160 billion a year vs $90 billion a year for Russia. Only Russias nuclear weapons which is a cold war left over keeps Russia in the big game, other then that Russia is a 2nd rate power just like France, UK, Germany.
If we took nuclear weaponry into consideration then Russia would be further ahead ANy way lets just agree to disagree on this one. The real tragedy is that right now unless Tony gets on the blower and says to Obama that we are withdrawing our support for a military strike, we remain as a party to yet another needless murdering spree of innocent civilians.
If we took nuclear weaponry into consideration then Russia would be further ahead ANy way lets just agree to disagree on this one. The real tragedy is that right now unless Tony gets on the blower and says to Obama that we are withdrawing our support for a military strike, we remain as a party to yet another needless murdering spree of innocent civilians.
So by doing nothing let just sit by and watch the use of chemical weapons on civilian populations. So if Assad after seeing no world response next time kills 10,000 or a 100,000 would that mean a response or should we just sit back and watch the slaughter despite having the power to prevent it.
Russia is far from 2nd in military power, if you think Russia should be 2nd due to nuclear weapons ask yourself how many times have nuclear weapons been used I combat since the end of World War Two and how many times convention weapons have been used.
China is far more powerful then Russia in military and economic terms. The only reason China does not build a massive nuclear weapon stockpile larger then Russia is it has no need to. Nuclear weapons serve no purpose other then deterrent and they have more then enough. Why waste billions on weapons never to be used when conventional weapons are fare more useful to achieve strategic national goals.
I fully support Obama to strike Syria and punish them for the use of chemical weapons. Ask yourself why Obama has done nothing for 2 and half years against Syria. The last thing Obama wants is to get involved in Syria and has done everything possible to avoid another middle eastern war. It is not in Americas interest to become involved in Syria, but the use of chemical weapons changes the situation. This is a war Obama does not want but is now forced to act.
So by doing nothing let just sit by and watch the use of chemical weapons on civilian populations. So if Assad after seeing no world response next time kills 10,000 or a 100,000 would that mean a response or should we just sit back and watch the slaughter despite having the power to prevent it.
Russia is far from 2nd in military power, if you think Russia should be 2nd due to nuclear weapons ask yourself how many times have nuclear weapons been used I combat since the end of World War Two and how many times convention weapons have been used.
China is far more powerful then Russia in military and economic terms. The only reason China does not build a massive nuclear weapon stockpile larger then Russia is it has no need to. Nuclear weapons serve no purpose other then deterrent and they have more then enough. Why waste billions on weapons never to be used when conventional weapons are fare more useful to achieve strategic national goals.
I fully support Obama to strike Syria and punish them for the use of chemical weapons. Ask yourself why Obama has done nothing for 2 and half years against Syria. The last thing Obama wants is to get involved in Syria and has done everything possible to avoid another middle eastern war. It is not in Americas interest to become involved in Syria, but the use of chemical weapons changes the situation. This is a war Obama does not want but is now forced to act.
Do you really think this is about children being gased?
What would be interesting would be if the Russians sent a squadron of MIGs to Syria as a goodwill exercise.Putin is just nutty enough to pull a stunt like that.
This is probably all about the natural gas pipeline that the Assad government is blocking.
Quote:
The potential for trillions of dollars of energy revenue in deals that snake through Syrian territory may be a motivating factor for the U.S., Russia, Turkey and Arab states in the current Syria crisis.
Syria is a key energy transit route to Europe. A number of countries appear to be seeking dominance of the energy market that runs through Syria.
"If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear." - Gene Roddenberry
"Balloon animals are a great way to teach children that the things they love dearly, may spontaneously explode" -- Lee Camp
Do you really think this is about children being gased?
What would be interesting would be if the Russians sent a squadron of MIGs to Syria as a goodwill exercise.Putin is just nutty enough to pull a stunt like that.
Get the Rebels to blow them up. MIGs won't stop cruise missiles fired hundreds of miles outside the borders of Syria or other long range stand of weapons. Oh also MIGs are pretty crap these days you want a squadron of Sukhoi-35 to match it with the US fighters even then they will struggle. But it would be symbolic to bad if a US missile hit them like the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.
So by doing nothing let just sit by and watch the use of chemical weapons on civilian populations. So if Assad after seeing no world response next time kills 10,000 or a 100,000 would that mean a response or should we just sit back and watch the slaughter despite having the power to prevent it.
Spare me the precautionary principle, I never buy that, especially with this supposed chemical gas attack by Assad. We have also heard this before quite recently in the Mid East as a ploy to justify plunder and death. As far as I am concerned this whole US/Israeli/Saudi backed Arab Spring exercise and their current foreign terrorists that are invading Syria has done nothing but wreak havoc, murder thousands, spoil and un settle perfectly stable countries all in the name of their expansionist foreign policy for the region. Obama is merely a puppet just doing what he is told by those that set foreign policy.
Isn't is about time that the US forces now invaded USA to capture the hearts and minds of the population and build bridges and roads to create employment for the locals.
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