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Anyone on minimum wage can afford to buy or rent a home in Australia
Topic Started: 29 Jan 2013, 03:53 PM (22,063 Views)
Trojan
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nipa hut
30 Jan 2013, 01:32 PM
So, a quick gut check here, folks:

Just how many of you on this board can legitimately claim to have gone through a sustained young-adult period on minimum-wage income, living on their own (whether in shared or own accommodation, but without parental or other subsidy of any kind, actually truly really saved a full 1/3 of their income over multiple years towards a down-payment for a dwelling...?

[Cue numerous sock-puppets with Oliver-Twist-made-good renditions...] :lol :lol :lol

Remember, all of the conditions need to have applied over the multi-year period:
- minimum-wage income
- living on their own
- actually saved a full 1/3 of their income towards a down payment on a house
What do you consider a subsidy?
I'm pretty sure someone on minimum wage would be eligible for low income tax offset from the government and possiblely other government assistance
http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.aspx?menuid=0&doc=/content/00309813.htm&page=6

I personally lived on Austudy for 4 years (which is less than 2/3 of minimum wage) paying rent (own room in a rundown shared house) and no family assistance.
It did mean things like I couldn't go and get pissed with my uni mates at the bar on Friday nights and I had to buy second hand textbooks (harder than it sounds when you are studying computer science because it goes obsolete so quickly). No mobile phone and no internet at home (why would you when computer labs at uni are open 24hrs).
But its not like you would starve to death on that amount.
Its just people don't have the financial discipline to do so.
Edited by Trojan, 30 Jan 2013, 01:49 PM.
I put trolls and time wasters on my ignore list so if I don't respond to you, you are probably on it ....
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Shadow
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nipa hut
30 Jan 2013, 01:32 PM
Just how many of you on this board can legitimately claim to have gone through a sustained young-adult period on minimum-wage income, living on their own (whether in shared or own accommodation, but without parental or other subsidy of any kind, actually truly really saved a full 1/3 of their income over multiple years towards a down-payment for a dwelling...?
The proposition is that anyone on minimum wage CAN afford to buy or rent a home in Australia. It's not about how many people have done it - it's about what people are able to do if they put their mind to it and make the necessary sacrifices. The fact that not many people are willing to make the necessary sacrifices is irrelevant to the proposition. Some people have other priorities - for example Mile's priorities include drinking, smoking, buying expensive gifts and running up large phone and internet bills - and that's fine... I'm sure he gets a lot of enjoyment from those activites. But the fact still stands that anyone on minimum wage CAN afford buy or rent a home in Australia. They just need to make it a priority and it can be done. AHURI agrees.
Edited by Shadow, 30 Jan 2013, 01:46 PM.
1. Epic Fail! Steve Keen's Bad Calls and Predictions.
2. Residential property loans regulated by NCCP Act. Banks can't margin call unless borrower defaults.
3. Housing is second highest taxed sector of Australian Economy. Renters subsidised by highly taxed homeowners.
4. Ongoing improvement in housing affordability. Australian household formation faster than population growth since 1960s.
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nipa hut
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Strindberg
30 Jan 2013, 01:33 PM
Poor try nipa. AHURI are categorical:

Quoting their comments regarding outright ownership and what people chose to do in the past confirms your common tendency towards straw men. The thread is NOT about outright ownership or even about what people did in the past. It is about what people CAN do. Your post and the quotes you captured have no relevance. Please try harder. This is too easy.
Nonsense. AHURI are no less "categorical" about the statements that I quoted.

Again:

Quote:
 
Outright ownership is increasingly a tenure for older people. There has been a very large loss of about 10 percentage points in outright ownership for 25–44-year-olds, and a loss of 15 points for middle-aged households. This has not been fully replaced by a higher incidence of purchasing, except in high-income households in non-metro areas. [emphasis added]

...

The changes in tenure of the past decade could be described as part of a continuing assault on middle Australia following the unpleasant labour and financial restructuring of the previous decade.


These are clear statements about the decreasing prevalence of certain tenure types, involving both outright ownership and "purchasing" (ownership with a mortgage) over the period that AHURI studied.


Trojan
30 Jan 2013, 01:40 PM
What do you consider a subsidy?
I'm pretty sure someone on minimum wage would be eligible for low income tax offset from the government and possiblely other government assistance
http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.aspx?menuid=0&doc=/content/00309813.htm&page=6

I personally lived on Austudy for 4 years (which is less than 2/3 of minimum wage) paying rent (own room in a rundown shared house) and no family assistance.
It did mean things like I couldn't go and get pissed with my uni mates at the bar on Friday nights and I had to buy second hand textbooks (harder than it sounds when you are studying computer science because it goes obsolete so quickly). No mobile phone and no internet at home (why would you when computer labs at uni are open 24hrs).
But its not like you would starve to death on that amount.
Its just people don't have the financial discipline to do so.
Wonderful Oliver Twist example (with allowance for modern government subsity)!

You make no mention, however, of having saved 1/3 of this income towards a down-payment on a house...?
Edited by nipa hut, 30 Jan 2013, 01:53 PM.
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Shadow
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nipa hut
30 Jan 2013, 01:51 PM
These are clear statements about the decreasing prevalence of certain tenure types, involving both outright ownership and "purchasing" (ownership with a mortgage) over the period that AHURI studied.
So what? That is completely irrelevant to the fact that anyone on minimum wage can afford to buy or rent a home in Australia.
1. Epic Fail! Steve Keen's Bad Calls and Predictions.
2. Residential property loans regulated by NCCP Act. Banks can't margin call unless borrower defaults.
3. Housing is second highest taxed sector of Australian Economy. Renters subsidised by highly taxed homeowners.
4. Ongoing improvement in housing affordability. Australian household formation faster than population growth since 1960s.
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Strindberg
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nipa hut
30 Jan 2013, 01:32 PM
So, a quick gut check here, folks:

Just how many of you on this board can legitimately claim to have gone through a sustained young-adult period on minimum-wage income, living on their own (whether in shared or own accommodation, but without parental or other subsidy of any kind, actually truly really saved a full 1/3 of their income over multiple years towards a down-payment for a dwelling...?
As wiki would say:
Quote:
 
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Shadow has position X.
Nipa disregards X and instead presents the superficially similar but different position Y.

Nipa shows that position Y is false, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This reasoning is fallacious because attacking a different position does not address the actual position. The ostensible argument that Nipa makes has the form:

"Don't support X, because X is false."

However, the actual form of the Nipa argument is:

"Don't support X, because Y is false."

This argument doesn't make sense; it is a non sequitur. Nipa relies on the audience not noticing this.

nipa hut
30 Jan 2013, 01:51 PM
Nonsense. AHURI are no less "categorical" about the statements that I quoted.
Yes, the AHURI makes the categorical statements you quoted. I agree with them. However, they have no relevance to the issue under discussion.

The AHURI statement which I quoted DOES have very significant relevance to the issue under discussion.
Edited by Strindberg, 30 Jan 2013, 02:03 PM.
Housing costs to Income broadly unchanged since 1994 - re-ratified here
The People of Australia have the highest median wealth in the World
2002-2012 10 year house price growth the SLOWEST since 1952-1962
"There are two kinds of people in this world: ones that fiddle around wondering whether a thing's right or wrong and guys like us." (Hugo to Gagin in Ride the Pink Horse)
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nipa hut
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Shadow
30 Jan 2013, 01:41 PM
The proposition is that anyone on minimum wage CAN afford to buy or rent a home in Australia. It's not about how many people have done it - it's about what people are able to do if they put their mind to it and make the necessary sacrifices. The fact that not many people are willing to make the necessary sacrifices is irrelevant to the proposition. Some people have other priorities - for example Mile's priorities include drinking, smoking, buying expensive gifts and running up large phone and internet bills - and that's fine... I'm sure he gets a lot of enjoyment from those activites. But the fact still stands that anyone on minimum wage CAN afford buy or rent a home in Australia. They just need to make it a priority and it can be done. AHURI agrees.
Oh, so your standard is one for a highly atypical person, like Mahatma Gandhi, rather than an everyday Australian???

:lol :lol :lol

I merely asked for examples, from the highly varied population of this board, of life experiences which might validate your premise. And yet, before any were proffered, you were suddenly at pains to qualify further just how applicable to everyday Australian reality your premise might be...

Hilarious!!!
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Trojan
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nipa hut
30 Jan 2013, 01:51 PM
Wonderful Oliver Twist example (with allowance for modern government subsity)!

You make no mention, however, of having saved 1/3 of this income towards a down-payment on a house...?
Why do need to mention I saved 1/3 for a down payment for a house?
I already mentioned Austudy was less than 2/3 of minimum wage so if I had enough to live on, a person on minimum wage could live on 2/3 of their wage (and thus save 1/3)

The best part of this is it taught me frugal living and was able to maintain it after I graduated and got a job - thus saving up for a deposit rapidly.
I put trolls and time wasters on my ignore list so if I don't respond to you, you are probably on it ....
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nipa hut
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Strindberg
30 Jan 2013, 01:59 PM
As wiki would say:

[The straw man fallacy]
So how, precisely, does my question to the board about their life experience, differ from the premise that Shadow set out for affordability of purchased housing on minimum wage, Strindberg?

Remember, all of the conditions need to have applied over the multi-year period:
- minimum-wage income
- living on their own [without parental or other subsidy of any kind]
- actually saved a full 1/3 of their income towards a down payment on a house


You have pretended that the above is a "straw man", in relation to Shadow's premise. In what respect, exactly?
Trojan
30 Jan 2013, 02:13 PM
Why do need to mention I saved 1/3 for a down payment for a house?
I already mentioned Austudy was less than 2/3 of minimum wage so if I had enough to live on, a person on minimum wage could live on 2/3 of their wage (and thus save 1/3)

The best part of this is it taught me frugal living and was able to maintain it after I graduated and got a job - thus saving up for a deposit rapidly.
Austudy currently varies between 67 and 88% of the current minimum wage award, depending on circumstance.

But I have no doubt you saved whatever you could towards that down-payment, whatever your circumstances at the time, and very nearly met Shadow's down-payment savings standard of $18-43K (in current-dollar terms) within 3 years of graduating at a greatly increased wage.

:lol :lol :lol
Edited by nipa hut, 30 Jan 2013, 02:34 PM.
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miw
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nipa hut
30 Jan 2013, 01:32 PM
So, a quick gut check here, folks:

Just how many of you on this board can legitimately claim to have gone through a sustained young-adult period on minimum-wage income, living on their own (whether in shared or own accommodation, but without parental or other subsidy of any kind, actually truly really saved a full 1/3 of their income over multiple years towards a down-payment for a dwelling...?

[Cue numerous sock-puppets with Oliver-Twist-made-good renditions...] :lol :lol :lol

Remember, all of the conditions need to have applied over the multi-year period:
- minimum-wage income
- living on their own
- actually saved a full 1/3 of their income towards a down payment on a house
Well, I lived on AUSTUDY for 5 years. That was quite a bit less than the minimum wage. At the time it was about half of minimum wage, from memory.

I wasn't saving for a home, but I survived on a disposable income of $30/wk which came from the holiday job I got each Xmas. In the last couple of years I shared a car with my brother and we had an understanding that if we went home to visit Mum and Dad we could put it in for a service and replace bald tyres on the station account. That was the extent of parental assistance we got.

The tightest I ever lived was when I was doing some postgrad work in Germany. Had to live on DM50/wk for groceries. Lost a lot of weight that year. The very concept of MacDonalds was foreign and a beer in a bar was a once-a-month thing (but beer was cheap in our Studentenwohnheim and I was Biermeister so that wasn't too bad. :-)

But I think I have saved at least 1/3 of my after-tax income towards housing investment my entire working life. It just became a habit. It has to disappear from your cash before you see it.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.
--Gloria Steinem
AREPS™
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Poontang
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I have never been out of work, nor have I been on minimum wage or received government welfare. (I did get a $900 cheque, does that count?)
Edited by Poontang, 30 Jan 2013, 02:45 PM.
There are some people who seem angry and continuously look for conflict.
Walk away, the battle they are fighting isn't with you, it's with themselves.

The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is not enough of anything to satisfy all who want it.
The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics. ~ Thomas Sowell.

Who was the fool, who the wise man, who the beggar or the Emperor? Whether rich or poor, all are equal in death.
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