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Is Macrobusiness operating illegally?; ASIC and Internet Discussion Sites (IDS) - Regulatory Guide 162
Topic Started: 28 Apr 2012, 02:02 PM (6,037 Views)
nipa hut
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Shadow
30 Apr 2012, 09:48 AM
As far as I know, CJ isn't a licensed financial advisor, and even if he was, he doesn't give advice about specific shares on his blog.

So I don't really see the relevance?

On the other hand, some of the people who run Macrobusiness appear to be licensed finance professionals, and they do give advice on specific shares.

Big difference.
So are you claiming, Shadow, that Chris Joye acts in no ASIC-licensed capacity whatsoever as an originator, promoter, intellectual property owner, or any other form of interested party, in the "RP Data-Rismark’s daily hedonic home value index, which is also published by the Australian Stock Exchange"???

The same daily index that Joye has been banging on about for years, pre-launch and now post-launch, in his personal blog???
Edited by nipa hut, 1 May 2012, 08:06 PM.
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Gossamer
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Strindberg
28 Apr 2012, 02:02 PM
The issue

It appears that the discussion of financial services securities on the internet is regulated by ASIC.
A reading of the relevant ASIC documentation indicates that a site considered by ASIC to be what they call an Internet Discussion Site (IDS) must not contain information, recommendations or opinions about financial products by financial services professionals.

What ASIC say

The relevant ASIC documents are:

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/pdflib.nsf/LookupByFileName/ps162.pdf/$file/ps162.pdf
ACIS Regulatory Guide 162 – Internet Discussion Sites
http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/pdflib.nsf/LookupByFileName/Consultation-paper-104-Internet%20discussion%20sites.pdf/$file/Consultation-paper-104-Internet%20discussion%20sites.pdf
ASIC Consultation Paper 104 – Internet Discussion Sites

In the second document ASIC explain what they mean by IDS thus:




The regulation 162 further states that if the IDS operator is a licensee the IDS must be operated by as a licensed activity.




Further, the regulation states that the giving of securities advice requires the IDS to operate under a license.




They further explain that warnings and disclosures are insufficient if the operator is himself a licensee and emphasise that the site must be operated as a licensed activity if the operator is a licensee.




An important restriction states that no licensed or authorised people are allowed to post on IDS. The regulation states:




Summary

If my reading is correct,

1. IDS are solely a facility for non-professionals to exchange information, advice and opinions about securities.
2. Licensed professionals must not post on IDSs.

It appears that as long as everyone posting on the IDS is an unlicensed amateur then everything is fine and dandy as far as ASIC and the law is concerned providing there are appropriate warnings and disclosures. On that basis APF appears to have nothing to be concerned about. We are all very clearly amateurs.

Macrobusiness

Is Macrobusiness an IDS? They certainly discuss financial products ie securities. They certainly give investment advice eg:
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2011/07/time-to-buy-jb-hi-fi/

It appears that some Macrobusiness blogs are written by financial services professionals. The above link includes the statement that the blog author is

Further statements about the authors can be found here:
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2012/04/the-spiral-takes-another-victim-jbh/

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2012/04/the-spiral-takes-another-victim-jbh/#comment-143975




..and here:
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2012/04/where-are-the-etfs/



http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/chris-becker/




Comment

I may of course have completely misunderstood ASIC's and/or Macrobusiness's positions. I'm sure you'll let me know if I have. However, it seems the question in the thread title is legitimate and worthy of discussion.
If they are operating illegally then what do you want APF to do about it?

Inform the relevant authorities and let them deal with the issue.
Common sense is a curse - those who have it need to suffer dealing with those who don't have it.

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Nelson
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nipa hut
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Gossamer
1 May 2012, 08:15 PM
If they are operating illegally then what do you want APF to do about it?

Inform the relevant authorities and let them deal with the issue.
Perhaps Strindberg should also inform ASIC about the activities on the Chris Joye blog, as that site, to a layman's eyes at least, appears to involve many of the same self-serving promotions of financial interest that Strindberg is apparently attributing to Macrobusiness.

I'll be very interest to see how both complaints go. :o
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stinkbug
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Whoa - settle down! I think we need to stop and remember that dobbers wear nappies!
---------------------------------------------------------------

While it's true that those who win never quit, and those who quit never win, those who never win and never quit are idiots.

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Shadow
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nipa hut
1 May 2012, 08:05 PM
So are you claiming, Shadow, that Chris Joye acts in no ASIC-licensed capacity whatsoever as an originator, promoter, intellectual property owner, or any other form of interested party, in the "RP Data-Rismark’s daily hedonic home value index, which is also published by the Australian Stock Exchange"???
No, I was saying that as far as I know, CJ isn't a licensed financial advisor, and even if he was, he doesn't give advice or recommendations about specific shares on his blog.

All that other stuff... you just made it up and attributed it to me.

Quote:
 
Strindberg should also inform ASIC about the activities on the Chris Joye blog, as that site, to a layman's eyes at least, appears to involve many of the same self-serving promotions of financial interest that Strindberg is apparently attributing to Macrobusiness.
ASIC aren't interested in people who provided general data and analysis about house price movements, and CJ never gives out specific recommendations to buy or sell property, never mind shares. Remember - the ASIC guidelines are about licensed financial advisers giving specific advice on particular shares to buy or sell. General information about house prices from property commentators is irrelevant to the ASIC guidelines.
Edited by Shadow, 1 May 2012, 08:48 PM.
1. Epic Fail! Steve Keen's Bad Calls and Predictions.
2. Residential property loans regulated by NCCP Act. Banks can't margin call unless borrower defaults.
3. Housing is second highest taxed sector of Australian Economy. Renters subsidised by highly taxed homeowners.
4. Ongoing improvement in housing affordability. Australian household formation faster than population growth since 1960s.
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nipa hut
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Shadow
1 May 2012, 08:42 PM
All that other stuff... you just made it up and attributed it to me.
So you must be thinking instead, Shadow, that Chris Joye does act as an originator, promoter, intellectual property owner, or some other form of interested party, in the "RP Data-Rismark’s daily hedonic home value index, which is also published by the Australian Stock Exchange"..???

After all, Joye has certainly--through his blog and other media venues--strongly associated himself with this proprietary financial product and its trading model, from its conception. (Or do you argue otherwise?)
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Shadow
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nipa hut
1 May 2012, 08:55 PM
After all, Joye has certainly--through his blog and other media venues--strongly associated himself with this proprietary financial product and its trading model, from its conception. (Or do you argue otherwise?)
I would argue that if CJ ever made recommendations on his blog to either buy or sell shares in that index, then he would be acting irresponsibly, and potentially in breach of ASIC guidelines. But since he hasn't ever done that, I don't see the relevance of the discussion. He hasn't even made any recommendations about buying or selling property, never mind shares.

Hoewever, Macrobusiness does appear to be owned or managed by licensed financial advisers, and they have provided financial advice and recommendations on specific shares. Some people might consider this to be a breach of the ASIC guidelines.
Edited by Shadow, 1 May 2012, 09:03 PM.
1. Epic Fail! Steve Keen's Bad Calls and Predictions.
2. Residential property loans regulated by NCCP Act. Banks can't margin call unless borrower defaults.
3. Housing is second highest taxed sector of Australian Economy. Renters subsidised by highly taxed homeowners.
4. Ongoing improvement in housing affordability. Australian household formation faster than population growth since 1960s.
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nipa hut
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Shadow
1 May 2012, 09:02 PM
I would argue that if CJ ever made recommendations on his blog to either buy or sell shares in that index, then he would be acting irresponsibly, and potentially in breach of ASIC guidelines. But since he hasn't ever done that, I don't see the relevance of the discussion. He hasn't even made any recommendations about buying or selling property, never mind shares.
But I don't think you'll find that ASIC-regulated activity in relation to financial advice is limited to the promotion of specific buy or sell calls with respect to a particular financial product.

I believe ASIC also regulates generic promotion of a financial product itself as a vehicle for trading and investment (e.g. CFDs). And I don't see how you could reasonably argue, Shadow, that Joye has not promoted the "RP Data-Rismark’s daily hedonic home value index, which is also published by the Australian Stock Exchange".
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Strindberg
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Gossamer
1 May 2012, 08:15 PM
If they are operating illegally then what do you want APF to do about it?

Inform the relevant authorities and let them deal with the issue.
I'm doing nothing about it. How would it benefit me to complain to ASIC? I don't give a toss for the sycophantic followers of MB bloggers who lose their shirts buying Becker's latest share tips. Much more fun for me to being giving Leith van Onselen, Chris Becker and David Llewellyn the shits. They have already complained about me to Alex, so he reported here, so I know I'm being effective. They annoyed me on Macrobusiness by being rude to me for correcting them and then banning me. Try googling Leith van Onselen and see if you can avoid a giggle.
Exposing them as clear flouters of ASIC regulations pisses them off and is fully justified. I suspect we'll see no more shares they own being spruiked on macrobusiness - they are now too shit scared now they have been exposed as possibly criminal spruikers.

What narks me most about MB is the hypocrisy. They slag off property investors as being unproductive and complain about a lack of manufacturing and productive work in Australia. And what do they do? They all work in leeching finance in merchant banks and second-hand share trading outfits. They stink.
Housing costs to Income broadly unchanged since 1994 - re-ratified here
The People of Australia have the highest median wealth in the World
2002-2012 10 year house price growth the SLOWEST since 1952-1962
"There are two kinds of people in this world: ones that fiddle around wondering whether a thing's right or wrong and guys like us." (Hugo to Gagin in Ride the Pink Horse)
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Gossamer
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You are a bitter person.
Common sense is a curse - those who have it need to suffer dealing with those who don't have it.

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Nelson
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