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The "age of entitlement" in Western countries was over
Topic Started: 19 Apr 2012, 11:21 PM (2,197 Views)
nipa hut
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davel
20 Apr 2012, 01:37 PM
At a lower level, there are plenty of examples right now of municipalities who are unable to service their pension debts, or at the very least are havint to make drastic cuts in order to meet their bills. Michael Lewis has a great one in his latest book where some Californian town is so screwed by its fire and police pension obligations that it can afford virtually nothing else.

As a general principle, municipalities should not have any role in awarding long-tail compensation benefits to local employees, unless these are signed off at state or national levels. Municipalities don't generally have the actuarial expertise to judge (and fund) the real longterm costs of such awards, and are too subject to episodes of misgovernance, graft, or worse.
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Elastic
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Discordant
20 Apr 2012, 01:28 PM
There must be a more equitable way than just leaving it all to business. Like a discredited economic model, you can’t assume that corporations are going to be nice reasonable ones and actually care about the community and its best interests. Unfortunately you can’t also allow the politicians to care about the community either. They are too easily swayed by PR fed to the media as news, which is biased in favour of the highest bidder. It is due to this collusion that we see our dearth of political leadership in this nation.

Whilst I feel that there needs to be responsibility for ones actions, this should not come at the expense of social equality. Therefore I see speeches such as rather dangerous for they will be embraced by the people who stand to lose the most from it. It will be the middle class who not only lose their at times unjust benefits bestowed upon them by the government, but also potentially their jobs as more and more positions are off-shored in the name of profit maintenance. This has been occurring in the US and the UK.

In a study one of my professors is conducting for the OECD, in the UK the skills level required for a previously non-graduate job, requires a graduate. This is not because of the skills required from such studies, just because the graduate jobs have been off-shored. I see this as very dangerous as this flows through the economic strata of society to the very bottom whose number will just increase. We are creating a society which will potentially mirror those seen in developing countries such as Brazil where the rich become richer and the poor and middle class just get left behind fighting for the odd jobs that haven’t been sent overseas. I put it to you, who is important to the rich people staying in business? There is a limit to how far you can push down the middle and lower classes before they can spend no more. Have they really considered the social and economic consequences of this?

Some would say that we are different to the UK, however given what I have seen from the study, we are heading down a similar path. We are mirroring their changes that started in the Thatcher years and are the ever widening social gaps that you see today. I can not see from both sides of politics any solutions or political will to change. As PF mentioned this morning I may have a boy scout approach to it, however debate creates discussion and somewhere in the middle we can find a resolution that takes into account the lives of all of us.

What we are witnessing is a globalization of the labor market, a deregulation of the benefits western nations have built up over two centuries. The deregulation of the labor market is designed PRECISELY as a means to lower the most significant cost to corporations – labor and wages.

This is all occurring at the same time that protectionism for corporations is being made hermetic and irrevocable through means such as IP laws, (SOPA and anti piracy laws in the US is a prime example), World Trade laws, institutionalization of corporate mandated compensation claims against sovereign nations, a complete dismantling of all privacy laws, remove of illegal search laws etc via the digital communications in order to maximize corporate control over their positions of power through invasive practices and control of content and consumption. Terrifying stuff. I did several thesis on the role of corporate militarization and the destruction of western sovereignty through a return to corporate merchantism as seen through the Virginia and East / West Indies trading companies – and piracy as it happens.

The root cause of all these issues is something you touch on – intelligence.

Australia simply does not have intelligent politicians – we have politicians as politicians, career political movers – I simply can not think of a single intelligent politician in Australia since Barry Jones, Malcolm Fraser and Paul Keating – not one.

Whats more Australia’s predilection for denigrating and ostracising intelligence and academia has taken a whole new turn for the despicable. I was roundly derided by a table of people the other day as my opinions sounded decidedly “bookish”, as opposed to what ? Arrogant unfounded uninformed shibboleths seemed to be the preference to a well educated balanced conclusions. I was gutted with despair. So people are aligning themselves, finding common ground with moronic, stupid leaders which both parties offer in spades, as a form of identifying with their own stupidity.

It is truly the hallmark of a nation on the precipice of unstoppable decline. Giving away all productive advantages through technology, sciences, intelligence and education in favor of destroying all that in the pursuit of the most low brow short term gain – digging up rocks.

The irony is that people do not realise that Korea was an absolute BACKWATER only 20-30 years ago, I mean people lived with candles, dirt floors and kero stoves. Japan had been bombed into the the middle of Hades, Taiwan was a no go zone etc, etc – however they all regarded education and intelligence with great reverence and are now dominating the planet – as do the Chinese.

Probably the most successful nation is the diaspora of the Jewish, who central tenet is the acquisition of knowledge and education – as a nation who has been dispossessed more so than most they have come to learn that this is the one thing that can never be taken away and can always be used to rebuild.

Australia is now a nation of anti-intellectuals, anti-academic asinine fools – the surest sign in all of history of a nation on the verge of radical decline.

We do not have a culture of continuing self development. A lot of my experience comes from Latin America. They can not understand how Australians can not be interested in developing ones self. They have to, as without the education they can not get anywhere. They live in the type of society that Mr Hockey is advocating and it isn’t fair at all. So they understand that in the end education is power. Where I am completing a Masters Thesis at the moment a minority of the students are Australian. Education is key to critical thought which without we are as a nation are a rudderless ship.

I believe that Australians are as capable and intelligent as the best of them. My issue is with the education system. We are spitting out people who are unable to think. They are told what to think in class and prepared for exams that determine corporate styled rankings of schools.

This is not their fault really, it is on the back of successive governments who have not invested in them. Unfortunately this is not an election winner due to the short term mindset. My question is why are we giving tax breaks so that people can lose money for 20 years on an investment property when we can’t even educate our primary school children properly?

There is vast amounts of evidence that the level of schooling has worsened here. Our children and hence people have been let down. The Economist summed up our universities last year as being like an Australian wine, good but not great. I think they underestimate our wines, however they have got it spot on with the Uni’s. I’m glad they didn’t look at our state primary schools as their opinion wouldn’t be so high. (Remember primary schools can’t supplement their dwindling funding with high fee paying foreign students to bump up their teaching quality)

We are capable, we just have an apathetic population who are being kept that way by self centred politicians who are are doing their best to pander to the ever powerful lobbies that blight our political landscape. Until a leader emerges from the mess that is our political selection process we will continue good but never great.
Nice post.
Only a rat can win a rat race.

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themoops
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Discordant
20 Apr 2012, 01:28 PM
Australia is now a nation of anti-intellectuals, anti-academic asinine fools – the surest sign in all of history of a nation on the verge of radical decline.

Academia is as much to blame as the bogans by thrusting political correctness down our throats. So you have a situation where anybody complaining about the hordes of immigrants coming in to the country or the loads of jobs offshored was immediately shut down as a "racist".

The powers that be would not be able to expoit people so badly if there wasn't so many people to exploit. This is the area where the left and academia are so utterly cowardly as it is not addressed one iota. Rendering them a joke.

It's also a chicken and egg thing, why do something intelligent for a job when you can be a tradie and make just as much, if not a whole lot more if you run your own business. Add to that the tax advantages of the cashy. The average tradie will charge anywhere between $400-$800 for 2-3 hours of work! Given that they'll be taking in about $5k+ a week! This is your fault as a pc 'intellectual'.

As an intellectual a decline is exactly what you want! Assuming you have a good job and haven't bought a house yet.
stinkbug omosessuale


Frank Castle is a liar and a criminal. He will often deliberately take people out of context and use straw man arguments.
Frank finally and unintentionally gives it up and admits he got where he is, primarily via dumb luck!
See here
Property will be 50-70% off by 2016.
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davel
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nipa hut
20 Apr 2012, 02:05 PM
davel
20 Apr 2012, 01:37 PM
At a lower level, there are plenty of examples right now of municipalities who are unable to service their pension debts, or at the very least are havint to make drastic cuts in order to meet their bills. Michael Lewis has a great one in his latest book where some Californian town is so screwed by its fire and police pension obligations that it can afford virtually nothing else.

As a general principle, municipalities should not have any role in awarding long-tail compensation benefits to local employees, unless these are signed off at state or national levels. Municipalities don't generally have the actuarial expertise to judge (and fund) the real longterm costs of such awards, and are too subject to episodes of misgovernance, graft, or worse.
I dont know what the process of approval is... but I do know that municipalities are on the hook for the cost. Thats just the fact of the matter. You see, municipalities control and fund education plus key services such as fire and police. This they fund through property tax, as their main source of revenue.

You see the problem... :bl:

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/News_Articles/2010/municipal-pension-systems.aspx

Quote:
 
For example: "In many cities, these unfunded promises will be a long-standing and substantial burden for municipal revenues. For example, even if all other spending was shut down, the city of Chicago would need to allocate about eight years of dedicated tax revenues to cover pension promises it has already made"
Six major cities have current pension assets that can only pay for promised benefits through 2020: Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, Cincinnati, Jacksonville and St. Paul. An additional 18 cities and counties, including New York City, Detroit, Cook County in Illinois and Orange County in California would be solvent through 2020 but not past 2025

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nipa hut
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davel
20 Apr 2012, 03:27 PM
I dont know what the process of approval is... but I do know that municipalities are on the hook for the cost. Thats just the fact of the matter. You see, municipalities control and fund education plus key services such as fire and police. This they fund through property tax, as their main source of revenue.

You see the problem... :bl:

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/News_Articles/2010/municipal-pension-systems.aspx


My impression is that this is mostly a US problem, based on where all the horror stories seem to come from, but I could be wrong.

The US does seem to be unique in that it allows municipalities to issue bonds whose income is tax-free, and the overall market for these bonds is quite large. It should be no surprise that this artificially cheap pool of capital is at least occasionally misused...
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stinkbug
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themoops
20 Apr 2012, 01:59 PM
He may not have started it per se but he exacerbated it like mad. It was under his rule that the boomer scum and property specufestors started demanding constant capital gains for housing and middle class workers who had to pay these scum for their overpriced properties started demanding middle class welfare.
Correlation does not equal causation. The major economic reforms implemented by Hawke/Keating meant that Australians' wealth and incomes grew significantly in real terms. As disposable income increased, so did the ambition of many Aussies.

If you're worried about property speculating, I'd be looking at who changed the CGT rules...
---------------------------------------------------------------

While it's true that those who win never quit, and those who quit never win, those who never win and never quit are idiots.

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stinkbug
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nipa hut
20 Apr 2012, 01:38 PM
Disagree somewhat. Substantially changing the NG rules on existing real estate holdings would indeed be too disruptive for any government to contemplate. But changing the rules just for new transactions is more feasible. Real estate bought under the old rules could have its original tax treatment grandfathered for an extended period of time (e.g. a decade, or even indefinitely) or until sold on again. There are similar precedents for grandfathering within the super system, for example.

But on the political front I don't see even a new-transaction change happening with NG anytime soon. Wayne Swan isn't touching the subject even though he's desperate to balance the books right now, and I can't see the next (Coalition) government pursuing it either. Maybe the next time there is a majority Labor government it will be looked at again, i.e. perhaps 10 years from now, when the full brunt of boomer retirement costs are completely hamstringing federal budgets.

A more immediate target should be stamp duty, which is nobody's idea of a good tax. It restricts labour force movement at a time when productivity growth is stalled, fluctuates wildly as a source of state government income, and isn't closely correlated with any real cost of service provision by state government. (While the states do provide any number of essential services, it isn't at all clear why the costs of these should fall disproportionately on the act of purchasing real estate.)

Changes to stamp duty wouldn't need to be grandfathered per se--though there'd need to be some temporary phase-in provisions, or RE transactions would grind to a complete halt before any cutover date. But the states would need a substitute source of income. Theoretically they already have one in the form of GST allocations from the feds, but both sides (federal vs state) have demonstrated bad faith in making that arrangement work over time. Possibly the states could yank up council rates instead; that's a trade-off that works in other countries with similar federal/state politics (and tax revenue allocation issues), e.g. Canada.


CGT is another example of tax grandfathering.

Regarding paying old age pensions, did anyone else notice the legislation snuck through at the same time as the carbon tax?
---------------------------------------------------------------

While it's true that those who win never quit, and those who quit never win, those who never win and never quit are idiots.

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NotFooled
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The Bear Whisperer

Discordant
20 Apr 2012, 01:28 PM
There must be a more equitable way than just leaving it all to business. Like a discredited economic model, you can’t assume that corporations are going to be nice reasonable ones and actually care about the community and its best interests. Unfortunately you can’t also allow the politicians to care about the community either. They are too easily swayed by PR fed to the media as news, which is biased in favour of the highest bidder. It is due to this collusion that we see our dearth of political leadership in this nation.

Whilst I feel that there needs to be responsibility for ones actions, this should not come at the expense of social equality. Therefore I see speeches such as rather dangerous for they will be embraced by the people who stand to lose the most from it. It will be the middle class who not only lose their at times unjust benefits bestowed upon them by the government, but also potentially their jobs as more and more positions are off-shored in the name of profit maintenance. This has been occurring in the US and the UK.

In a study one of my professors is conducting for the OECD, in the UK the skills level required for a previously non-graduate job, requires a graduate. This is not because of the skills required from such studies, just because the graduate jobs have been off-shored. I see this as very dangerous as this flows through the economic strata of society to the very bottom whose number will just increase. We are creating a society which will potentially mirror those seen in developing countries such as Brazil where the rich become richer and the poor and middle class just get left behind fighting for the odd jobs that haven’t been sent overseas. I put it to you, who is important to the rich people staying in business? There is a limit to how far you can push down the middle and lower classes before they can spend no more. Have they really considered the social and economic consequences of this?

Some would say that we are different to the UK, however given what I have seen from the study, we are heading down a similar path. We are mirroring their changes that started in the Thatcher years and are the ever widening social gaps that you see today. I can not see from both sides of politics any solutions or political will to change. As PF mentioned this morning I may have a boy scout approach to it, however debate creates discussion and somewhere in the middle we can find a resolution that takes into account the lives of all of us.

What we are witnessing is a globalization of the labor market, a deregulation of the benefits western nations have built up over two centuries. The deregulation of the labor market is designed PRECISELY as a means to lower the most significant cost to corporations – labor and wages.

This is all occurring at the same time that protectionism for corporations is being made hermetic and irrevocable through means such as IP laws, (SOPA and anti piracy laws in the US is a prime example), World Trade laws, institutionalization of corporate mandated compensation claims against sovereign nations, a complete dismantling of all privacy laws, remove of illegal search laws etc via the digital communications in order to maximize corporate control over their positions of power through invasive practices and control of content and consumption. Terrifying stuff. I did several thesis on the role of corporate militarization and the destruction of western sovereignty through a return to corporate merchantism as seen through the Virginia and East / West Indies trading companies – and piracy as it happens.

The root cause of all these issues is something you touch on – intelligence.

Australia simply does not have intelligent politicians – we have politicians as politicians, career political movers – I simply can not think of a single intelligent politician in Australia since Barry Jones, Malcolm Fraser and Paul Keating – not one.

Whats more Australia’s predilection for denigrating and ostracising intelligence and academia has taken a whole new turn for the despicable. I was roundly derided by a table of people the other day as my opinions sounded decidedly “bookish”, as opposed to what ? Arrogant unfounded uninformed shibboleths seemed to be the preference to a well educated balanced conclusions. I was gutted with despair. So people are aligning themselves, finding common ground with moronic, stupid leaders which both parties offer in spades, as a form of identifying with their own stupidity.

It is truly the hallmark of a nation on the precipice of unstoppable decline. Giving away all productive advantages through technology, sciences, intelligence and education in favor of destroying all that in the pursuit of the most low brow short term gain – digging up rocks.

The irony is that people do not realise that Korea was an absolute BACKWATER only 20-30 years ago, I mean people lived with candles, dirt floors and kero stoves. Japan had been bombed into the the middle of Hades, Taiwan was a no go zone etc, etc – however they all regarded education and intelligence with great reverence and are now dominating the planet – as do the Chinese.

Probably the most successful nation is the diaspora of the Jewish, who central tenet is the acquisition of knowledge and education – as a nation who has been dispossessed more so than most they have come to learn that this is the one thing that can never be taken away and can always be used to rebuild.

Australia is now a nation of anti-intellectuals, anti-academic asinine fools – the surest sign in all of history of a nation on the verge of radical decline.

We do not have a culture of continuing self development. A lot of my experience comes from Latin America. They can not understand how Australians can not be interested in developing ones self. They have to, as without the education they can not get anywhere. They live in the type of society that Mr Hockey is advocating and it isn’t fair at all. So they understand that in the end education is power. Where I am completing a Masters Thesis at the moment a minority of the students are Australian. Education is key to critical thought which without we are as a nation are a rudderless ship.

I believe that Australians are as capable and intelligent as the best of them. My issue is with the education system. We are spitting out people who are unable to think. They are told what to think in class and prepared for exams that determine corporate styled rankings of schools.

This is not their fault really, it is on the back of successive governments who have not invested in them. Unfortunately this is not an election winner due to the short term mindset. My question is why are we giving tax breaks so that people can lose money for 20 years on an investment property when we can’t even educate our primary school children properly?

There is vast amounts of evidence that the level of schooling has worsened here. Our children and hence people have been let down. The Economist summed up our universities last year as being like an Australian wine, good but not great. I think they underestimate our wines, however they have got it spot on with the Uni’s. I’m glad they didn’t look at our state primary schools as their opinion wouldn’t be so high. (Remember primary schools can’t supplement their dwindling funding with high fee paying foreign students to bump up their teaching quality)

We are capable, we just have an apathetic population who are being kept that way by self centred politicians who are are doing their best to pander to the ever powerful lobbies that blight our political landscape. Until a leader emerges from the mess that is our political selection process we will continue good but never great.
If you want intelligent politicians, move to China. Australian politicians are cowardly, backstabbing, power hungry scum who are easily manipulated by powerful elites.

Australia has, in some sense, always been anti-intillectual but it has become worse over recent decades. It's going to be bad for Australia in the longer term, but it is only going to get worse. There is too much political capital to be gained in denigrating science and placing blame on "intellectuals".
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themoops
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"As PF mentioned this morning I may have a boy scout approach to it, however debate creates discussion and somewhere in the middle we can find a resolution that takes into account the lives of all of us."

The simple answer is to simply not vote for Liberal or Labor, the Stable Population Party is by far the best choice.

But obviously it's unlikely to happen as boomers are clueless and still living in the 70s when the Liberals were actually conservative and not the neo con/liberal wankers they are now. Half of gen x are dribbling morons who rode the boom and think they're king shit, as if they achieved their new found property wealth, a lot of gen y are mega mortgage mugs.

It won't be until they've ruined their childrens lives that they might wake up to what they've done, and by that time it will probably be too late as and our cities will be infested with people who breed like flies.
stinkbug omosessuale


Frank Castle is a liar and a criminal. He will often deliberately take people out of context and use straw man arguments.
Frank finally and unintentionally gives it up and admits he got where he is, primarily via dumb luck!
See here
Property will be 50-70% off by 2016.
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economist
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Black Panther
19 Apr 2012, 11:21 PM
Joe Hockey flags welfare cuts

AAP
April 19, 2012 12:00AM

OPPOSITION Treasury spokesman Joe Hockey has indicated a Coalition government would look at cutting welfare and other entitlements to offset lower personal income and business taxes.

Mr Hockey told policymakers in Europe the "age of entitlement" in Western countries was over.

"We are all living longer and the longer we rely on government handouts, the greater the burden for taxpayers and particularly those that follow," he told ABC TV from London after his speech.

But he said the problem in Australia was not as bad as many European countries where 20-30 per cent of the gross domestic product (GDP) was government welfare spending.

In Australia, the level is only 16 per cent of GDP.

However, Mr Hockey though there was still work to be done to reduce this.

"We need to compare ourselves with our Asian neighbours where the entitlements programs of the state are far less than they are in Australia," he said.

"If we talk about the Asian century ... then the Asian countries are our competition, our children's competition."

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/joe-hockey-flags-welfare-cuts/story-e6frfkvr-1226332171883#ixzz1sUKfds3Z

This is a great idea...I really didn't think Joe would be the cross bearer for cutting Australians pollys income to match our northern neighbors...

Perhaps I missed the point though
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