It is a vague term with multiple potential meanings.
I'm asking what you personally meant by it.
Surely you know what you meant when you used the term, so why is it so difficult for you to explain?
It is not vague. It is a commonly used term. If you genuinely do not understand it then I don't how you can expect your arguments to carry weight on this topic.
I am not going be drawn further into your pettiness.
It is not vague. It is a commonly used term. If you genuinely do not understand it then I don't how you can expect your arguments to carry weight on this topic.
I am not going be drawn further into your pettiness.
Nobody has denied that the climate changes, and nobody has denied that humans may influence changes in the climate, so I don't see any climate change deniers here.
In any case, you have basically agreed with my position - i.e. you agree that the climate has always been changing, and that the extent to which humans influence climate change is unknown.
Seriously - of course Co2 is connected to warming. This is not in debate.
I reiterate that that climate change deniers will look back on this period with embarrassment.
Reading over some of the comments in this thread leaves me thinking of this quote from Mr. Oblaski;
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Best of luck.
Rather than indulge in repeated abuse, how about you address the issues just once.
For example, what do you think caused the temperature changes in the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age?
The following graphic was published by the IPCC in their first report.
There have been attempts by alarmists to censor the existence of the embarrassing MWP. Deming reported to the Senate:
Quote:
I received an astonishing email from a major researcher in the area of climate change. He said, “We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period.”
A string of emails exist revealing that Jones and Mann attempted to suppress knowledge of the existence of the MWP and LIA (here). The Harvard-Smithsonion Center for Astrophysics reports here at the time that Jones and Mann were trying to get rid of the embarrassing data:
Quote:
20th Century Climate Not So Hot
Cambridge, MA - A review of more than 200 climate studies led by researchers at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics has determined that the 20th century is neither the warmest century nor the century with the most extreme weather of the past 1000 years. The review also confirmed that the Medieval Warm Period of 800 to 1300 A.D. and the Little Ice Age of 1300 to 1900 A.D. were worldwide phenomena not limited to the European and North American continents. While 20th century temperatures are much higher than in the Little Ice Age period, many parts of the world show the medieval warmth to be greater than that of the 20th century.
.....
The worldwide range of climate records confirmed two significant climate periods in the last thousand years, the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. The climatic notion of a Little Ice Age interval from 1300 to1900 A.D. and a Medieval Warm Period from 800 to 1300 A.D. appears to be rather well-confirmed and wide-spread, despite some differences from one region to another as measured by other climatic variables like precipitation, drought cycles, or glacier advances and retreats.
"For a long time, researchers have possessed anecdotal evidence supporting the existence of these climate extremes," Baliunas says. "For example, the Vikings established colonies in Greenland at the beginning of the second millennium that died out several hundred years later when the climate turned colder. And in England, vineyards had flourished during the medieval warmth. Now, we have an accumulation of objective data to back up these cultural indicators."
The different indicators provided clear evidence for a warm period in the Middle Ages. Tree ring summer temperatures showed a warm interval from 950 A.D. to 1100 A.D. in the northern high latitude zones, which corresponds to the "Medieval Warm Period." Another database of tree growth from 14 different locations over 30-70 degrees north latitude showed a similar early warm period. Many parts of the world show the medieval warmth to be greater than that of the 20th century.
Rather than indulge in repeated abuse, how about you address the issues just once.
For example, what do you think caused the temperature changes in the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age?
The following graphic was published by the IPCC in their first report.
There have been attempts by alarmists to censor the existence of the embarrassing MWP. Deming reported to the Senate:
A string of emails exist revealing that Jones and Mann attempted to suppress knowledge of the existence of the MWP and LIA (here). The Harvard-Smithsonion Center for Astrophysics reports here at the time that Jones and Mann were trying to get rid of the embarrassing data:
There were warmer temperatures concentrated in some areas during this time. Other areas were significantly colder. Globally the planet was cooler.
Also, the causes for warming in some areas during this period are not the same causes for warming today.
It is a bit of a cheap shot. I started using the term 'alarmist' last week after having been subjected to 'denialist' and 'denier' accusations for so long.
The 'climate change denier' label doesn't even make sense. I don't think anyone actually denies that the climate changes.
My position is that the climate does change, and always has done.
I wasn't shooting at you, Shadow. I was just pointing out that I give lower credibility to people who use propaganda techniques in their argument. In fact I have much more serious problems with the "denier" language because of the implied Nazi association. "Alarmist" is a label, but far less pernicious in my view. It is even a true description of some people, but, like "bubble" and "specufestor" it has become completely overused and essentially meaningless because its application has become more often inappropriate than appropriate. Also, people and arguments that fit under the generally-used umbrella of "alarmist" range from total nutters to solid scientists. I have no idea what you really mean when you use the term.
As to your position on climate change, it is literally correct. There are many overlaid signals in the composite signal of climate. But it is more interesting to work out what percentage of that signal is anthropogenic, and what percentage is not. We cannot work out what, if anything, we should be doing if we can't separate the signals. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to think the anthropogenic signal is relatively minor. On balance of probabilities I no longer hold this view but have to concede you may still turn out to be correct. The behaviour of temperatures over the past 10 years supports your point of view but the behaviour over the past 100 years does not.
Aside: The affect of the warming of the Earth's surface so far have been pretty good for people. Our food production would be quite a bit less now if the warming since the 70s had not happened. Had temperatures gone down by the same amount it would have been a disaster. My interpretation of the last 10 years is that the warming signal may be being countered by a fairly strong cooling signal that nobody really understands. Is it short-term or long-term? Will it get stronger? Is it even more of a threat than anthropogenic warming?
Tyrion Lannister
1 Nov 2012, 08:45 AM
Sorry I didn't realise you don't understand the commonly used term "climate change deniers"?
"Climate Change Deniers" is commonly used by people who have prematurely exited the debate on one side of the question to denote anybody who disagrees with them. It is indicative of lazy thinking. The fact that the term has been carefully chosen so as to associate climate change skeptics with holocaust deniers makes it doubly pernicious and somewhat offensive.
The use of the term is a good flag for identifying people who are not making any useful contribution to the field but have moved on to the politics.
Rather than indulge in repeated abuse, how about you address the issues just once.
For example, what do you think caused the temperature changes in the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age?
The following graphic was published by the IPCC in their first report.
There have been attempts by alarmists to censor the existence of the embarrassing MWP. Deming reported to the Senate:
A string of emails exist revealing that Jones and Mann attempted to suppress knowledge of the existence of the MWP and LIA (here). The Harvard-Smithsonion Center for Astrophysics reports here at the time that Jones and Mann were trying to get rid of the embarrassing data:
We know why this was done. It was to simplify the message, and it was wrong and it backfired. Why are we going back to the beginning on this? This is just sad.
We know why this was done. It was to simplify the message, and it was wrong and it backfired. Why are we going back to the beginning on this? This is just sad.
In any other scientific field, "simplifying the message" is known as "fraud".
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. --Gloria Steinem AREPS™
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