You agree with me that the climate has always been, and still is, changed by natural forces.
You also agree that there is no consent on the extent to which humans contribute to climate change.
So why are you arguing with me and attempting to belittle my position?
On what point do you disagree with me? Indeed, there used to be scientific consensus that the earth was flat...
I agreed with you earlier that the climate has always been, and still is, changed by natural forces.
There are massive amounts of data that show the correlation between climate change and human emissions. If you want to say correlation doesn't prove causation then fine go for it. You would then be choosing to ignore a significant piece of evidence.
Shadow
31 Oct 2012, 04:57 PM
Not when they receive more funding and greater publicity the more alarmist their theories are.
Please. Do you think the denialists are short of funding?
I don't know what the situation is in regard to the consensus on the extent. Are you looking for something like x% of the scientific consensus believe that humans are 90% responsible and y% believe that humans are 80% responsible? I am not sure where to get that info to be honest. Would be keen to see it if you can find it though. With one side of the argument having significant evidence to back it up plus overwhelming support from the experts in that field.
I do not know where you get your ideas from.
Until recently issues like the MWP and the little ice age were mired in controversy, where a number of prominant figures in the alarmist camp were clearly seen to be making efforts to remove inconvenient data from the historical record.
Other prominant organisations like Green peace have admitted that they make alarming statements about Greenlandic ice melting because it enables them to further their objectives.
Scientists like Judith Curry have said that people need to clean their act up and present the data honestly so that people are not bullied by the IPCC into being part of a so called consensus.
The good news is that usually they eventually get to the right answer. I don't think we can say definitively that that has happened with climate change yet. Maybe in 10 years....
It will take a lot longer. Alarmists look at temperature changes or weather events over a couple of decades and say this is 'unprecedented' based on observations over the past century or two, but this is a ridiculously small timeframe on which to base such a statement. There is simply no way we will ever know how many similar periods occurred over the past billions of years.
For example, between 200,000 BC and 199,950 BC there may have been a similar change in global temperature, CO2 levels, ice caps etc. But we will never know.
Tyrion Lannister
31 Oct 2012, 05:00 PM
I agreed with you earlier that the climate has always been, and still is, changed by natural forces.
What do you not agree with me on?
Tyrion Lannister
31 Oct 2012, 05:00 PM
Please. Do you think the denialists are short of funding?
The fact that some denialists are funded and have vested interests doesn't negate the fact that the alarmists are also funded and have vested interests.
Also note that denialist sources are not the basis for my point of view - I'm simply using my own logic - i.e. the climate has always changed as a result of natural forces, it is very complex, we won't have good data for what happened in the past, therefore we can't know the extent to which humans currently contribute to climate change. This is just logic. I don't need funding to employ logic.
The alarmists have no logic - just blind faith and dogma. For example, The Count, and others, have said humans are 99% or completely responsible for climate change. They have absolutely no evidence on which to base this claim. It's just blind faith, like religion.
It will take a lot longer. Alarmists look at temperature changes or weather events over a couple of decades and say this is 'unprecedented' based on observations over the past century or two, but this is a ridiculously small timeframe on which to base such a statement. There is simply no way we will ever know how many similar periods occurred over the past billions of years.
For example, between 200,000 BC and 199,950 BC there may have been a similar change in global temperature, CO2 levels, ice caps etc. But we will never know. What do you not agree with me on?
Catweasel laugh. So all mouzealot need to do the now is a test its hypothesis that man (mouse)-made not a impact the climate change.
Of the course, it cannot. Just like any the reactionary mouse lacking in basic scientific understand or knowledge theory.
You appear to have difficulty following the discussion. That's not my hypothesis.
If mouzealot understand basic science process, it would understand that no the evidence is not refute of existence. A secondly, it cannot refute idea that a man (mouse) the made not a impact a climate change.
So its claims for a evidence of the something not a show a anything. A secondly, to do a understand of basic research or scientific method, it need to have robust mind of science. This should be taught to mouse when it about 11 years old and it could change its life.
So basically mouzealot should understand that reactionary against a mainstream science community not the show or the prove anything.
It do a better to work on Excel skills or read some the books.
If it is a choice from learning about climate change from climate scientists or Ian Plimer and Lord Monckton, I will take the climate scientists all day every day.
Funding is also an interesting point. Who do you think would be funding the the denialsts?
The point that I think climate change sceptics miss it that it is scientists' job to be sceptical in the first place.
Actually Lord Monckton leaves me unmoved as well. He seems like a bit of a nutter to me. Not familiar enough with Plimer to say one way or the other.
I am very uncomfortable with the term "denialist." Name-calling is a standard propaganda technique used by people for whom the truth is an incidental commodity which is only of value if it happens to support their position. "Denialist" and "denyer" are used in order to try to associate anyone who challenges the climate change orthodoxy with the Nazis. As such, I tend to switch off and give anyone who uses those terms a credibility rating of zero. Similarly with "alarmist". There definitely people who deny the facts and also people who distort and exaggerate in order to create the reaction they want. That is not at issue. But strangely these are the very same people who bandy about "alarmist" and "denialist" and they can safely be ignored.
It is certainly the scientist's job to be skeptical in the first place. But it is also their job to feed their families. They can only follow lines of inquiry that can get them published and get them funded. It is very hard to get published if everyone who reviews your paper disagrees with you. This is only a temporary problem. If in fact anthropogenic climate change is a crock, then the truth will out. Not that I actually think it is a crock. I do think we are still some way off from a complete understanding though. There are quite obviously more forces at work that are not anthropogenic and it is going to take quite some time to sort them out. Especially when the few people left working on them are ridiculed and subject to abuse.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. --Gloria Steinem AREPS™
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