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Australian Population Growth and Migration
Topic Started: 10 Jan 2011, 11:16 AM (21,822 Views)
kennyjaiz
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Jordan
13 Jan 2011, 01:26 PM
We need to stop immigration from countries that have opposing views to ours. We have enough muslim and asian ghettos already in Sydney and Melbourne and the Australian people have not even been asked what they want for their country.

Why should young Australians have to pay taxes so that some elderly Chinese couple can receive top quality medical care and live in heavily subsidized aged accommodation. Put them on a plane and let them "enjoy" all the benefits of their home nation.

Immigration is nothing but the destruction and dismantling of the existing culture and way of life.

Australians should by all rights be marching in the streets over this issue. The selling out of their home and country by a handful of men is inexcusable.

I have nothing against immigrants, they are only trying to improve their lot in life. The fault lies with the traitorous politicians and businessmen who have no respect for the values of Australia and will do anything to make a buck. Even sell out a whole country if need be.

If I had my way the door would be shut and we would take only humanitarian refugees who are prepared to properly assimilate and respect local cultures and customs. If you're not prepared to do that you can return to whence you came and practice the way of life you are so unwilling to give up.



After many discussions with you and LC on this topic, I suspect the result of this discussion will be similar - our strong views re immigration and multiculturalism left unchanged - which is fine, that is what diversity is about.

I don't know if we should have more or less immigration in Australia in the coming years, I don't have enough information to make that call. I am aware that non-renewable resources are depleting, our existing infrastructure is becoming insufficient and the capital cities are getting more crowded. This is happening around the world, not just Australia. Having an isolated immigration policy does little to solve this global issue. I know we are all too self-interested in protecting our own backyard to be concerned about what is happening around the world. But lets take the emotion out of the discussion and look at the facts, about what is sustainable, and beneficial (economical, social-cultural, political, technological) to Australia and the world. I am convinced that the optimal solution will lie somewhere in between the two extremes.

I am, however, unreservedly against discriminatory immigration policies based on race and religion, and the proliferation of unnecessarily stereotypes. I can confirm that the homicide rate in the Asia is lower than Oceania (source: Global Burden of Armed Violence Report and Geneva Declaration on Armed Violence and Development). Surely, you can reduce the threat to your basic human right (such as security) without being racist. On the topic of different views - I see it as a positive. Just because you feel uncomfortable, doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do. To be honest, I am quite happy that our immigration policies isn't up to you, or the likes of Pauline Hanson - who are motivated by emotion, ignorance and/or fear.

EDIT: It wouldn't hurt to understand how and why we evolved from a white Australia in the 1900s to where we are now.
Edited by kennyjaiz, 13 Jan 2011, 04:01 PM.
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Jordan
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kennyjaiz
13 Jan 2011, 03:53 PM
After many discussions with you and LC on this topic, I suspect the result of this discussion will be similar - our strong views re immigration and multiculturalism left unchanged - which is fine, that is what diversity is about.

I don't know if we should have more or less immigration in Australia in the coming years, I don't have enough information to make that call. I am aware that non-renewable resources are depleting, our existing infrastructure is becoming insufficient and the capital cities are getting more crowded. This is happening around the world, not just Australia. Having a isolated immigration policy does little to solve this global issue. I know we are all too self-interested in protecting our own backyard to be concerned about what is happening around the world. But lets take the emotion out of the discussion and look at the facts, about what is sustainable, and beneficial (economical, social-cultural, political, technological) to Australia and the world. I am convinced that the optimal solution will lie somewhere in between the two extremes.

I am, however, unreservedly against discriminatory immigration policies based on race and religion, and the proliferation of unnecessarily stereotypes. I can confirm that the homicide rate in the Asia is lower than Oceania (source: Global Burden of Armed Violence Report and Geneva Declaration on Armed Violence and Development). Just because you feel uncomfortable, doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do. To be honest, I am quite happy that our immigration policies isn't up to you, or the likes of Pauline Hanson - who are motivated by emotion and/or fear.

Yes Kenny. You are all for immigration and multiculturalism with zero regard for the quality of life of existing Australians. We have covered that before.

I will be proven right in your lifetime and I am quite sure eventually when you are older you will like the many chinese I have met and talked to think that further immigration will only worsen quality of life, not improve it.

I do find it ironic that many of the people against immigration are actually immigrants themselves, that can see how in the past few years the quality of life in many parts of Australia has worsened. They did not put all that effort into coming here to live, only to have Australia turn into the over crowded miserable hellhole from which they escaped.

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Admin
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Note to all: Several posts from this thread were moved (not deleted) to the General Discussion Forum. There is a new thread there dedicated to off-topic immigration ranting and fighting. Not all immigration related posts were moved (as this is a thread about emigration), only a handful that were off topic, derailing, non-constructive or overly abusive. Subsequent posts of similar nature will be moved too so it would be best to post them in the new thread in the first place, in the general discussion sub forum. Thanks. :)

General Discussion Forum
Edited by Admin, 13 Jan 2011, 04:40 PM.
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Jordan
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kennyjaiz
13 Jan 2011, 04:18 PM
I understand we as a nation progressed from a White Australia to a multicultural country - yes.
That is not an understanding of why it was done but rather a description of what has occurred.

Yes, we have gone from a policy of immigration that favored the import of people into Australia that shared similar cultural values such as a christianity and democracy to one that says we no longer care where you are from or what you believe in as long as you spend money.

I think Australia would be a far better place to live today if we had continued to run a policy of immigration that favored people that are most similiar to us over those that are not.

People should just stay in their own countries and do what they can to make it a better place to live rather than come leeching of other nations just because their birth country is not a fair or democratic place to live. Why do people from countries that have zero respect for our way of life wish to come live here anyway.

The real Chinese heroes and patriots are those that stay in China, and even though they are currently losing, they keep fighting for justice and democracy. Not the cowards that immigrate here. Same can be said of any country, whether that be Burma or Thailand.
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Strindberg
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Shadow
13 Jan 2011, 03:36 PM
Max Carnage/Foundation, you're such a big paranoid big twit. Imagine going to all that effort to remove my name because you couldn't stand the thought of one of my charts being on your forum! Here is Max's version of my chart, censored for his bears-only forum, from this post on S&S...

Hi Max... won't be long before Melbourne prices are below 2005 'slump levels', right? :laugh:
Shadow - I'll come back here if you can get pin-up boy Max Carnage/Foundation/Anus to join here. It'd be fun. At least he had better data than that clown raveswei and he could do sums.

Here's the post that the bears' pin-up boy himself wrote about Melbourne house prices in 2006 on GHPC.

Quote:
 
{name='Foundation' post='57144' date='Oct 10 2006, 10:21 AM'} I assure you, rural / regional areas are sliding fast (except perhaps for WA generally and mining towns). Melbourne has had a dead-cat bounce, yet remains below nominal 2003 prices and around 15% below in real terms. It's index is now retreating rapidly again and I expect it will soon be back below 2005 'slump' levels.
Housing costs to Income broadly unchanged since 1994 - re-ratified here
The People of Australia have the highest median wealth in the World
2002-2012 10 year house price growth the SLOWEST since 1952-1962
"There are two kinds of people in this world: ones that fiddle around wondering whether a thing's right or wrong and guys like us." (Hugo to Gagin in Ride the Pink Horse)
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Jordan
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Nothing further to be said on this issue.

You have either lost or gained from immigration and that is that.

The ones that have gained and that includes recent immigrants that get the benefit of all our infrastructure without paying a cent and the business leaders that frankly could not give a damn about this country, many of whom are like the Downers in Adelaide that have one foot in Great Britain and one here, and could happily leave here if they had too.

The ones that have lost are all the young people and all the unborn children to come, who will never know what Australia was once like and now never will. They will only ever know crowds and traffic and high costs of living, expensive property and ever decreasing environmental resources.

After all, we took it from the original owners so we have no real rights to this country anyway, right?
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kennyjaiz
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Jordan
13 Jan 2011, 04:03 PM

Yes Kenny. You are all for immigration and multiculturalism with zero regard for the quality of life of existing Australians. We have covered that before.

I am not sure how you derived that conclusion from my statement. But no, that is not my position and I prefer it if you would stop misrepresenting my position.

Quote:
 
I will be proven right in your lifetime and I am quite sure eventually when you are older you will like the many chinese I have met and talked to think that further immigration will only worsen quality of life, not improve it.

I suspect there will be many events in our lifetime that will influence the outcome of Australia, not that I can predict your life expectancy. But it is good to have a positive outlook.
As I mentioned, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is, skilled migrants generally increase productivity, and we have an ageing population issue to deal with - which also has impact on quality of life.

Quote:
 
I do find it ironic that many of the people against immigration are actually immigrants themselves, that can see how in the past few years the quality of life in many parts of Australia has worsened. They did not put all that effort into coming here to live, only to have Australia turn into the over crowded miserable hellhole from which they escaped.


Have you met Zaph? Jordan, this is Zaph. Zaph, this is Jordan. Play nice.
It's fine to be against immigration, but it's not okay to be discriminatory based on their race (you mentioned Asian Ghettos) and religion (you mentioned Muslims). Do you even get that you are being discriminatory?
Also, do you have factual evidence to substantiate your assertions?
Edited by kennyjaiz, 13 Jan 2011, 05:46 PM.
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Exclusion to inclusion for the young.
What does that mean?
1. As our average age is 36.7, then by law, half of our parliament should be under this age.
2. You are correct that young oze's do not need to pay for the crimes of their forefathers, however the apology and recognition that came with it happened because of the under 36.7 year olds. KR represented them mostly. I know much of the aboriginal culture and have spent time in very remote communities, and we have a lot to learn about life, sustainability, wealth and true quality of life from these people. My hope is that we do not waste that resource completely before the aged aboriginals all pass us by. That will be a very sad day indeed.
3. Great point about assimilation and so, the young should be charged with this responsibility. Get a grant from the give to sponsor a new family for x weeks to assist in the understanding about our values we hold as a nation. Total inclusion and paid for handsomely by the govt to our young. That is if you are under 36.7

We were bringing people in and now that bubble has popped and we will struggle to attaché the quality of people compared to the quality of the 750 Aussie born kids who are now leaving weekly. Over 3000 per well left in November and our long term visitors and no in negative. More going than coming!

Yes population growth included the natural growth of births over deaths. 160,000 plus the 54,000 net immigrants for the last year is 210,000 people, or a 1% growth. We dropped from 2.2 to 1.7 to 1. Shite!

Could we survive with no immigration? No, not is our emigration continues to peak. Our population could quickly start to decline, even allowing for natural growth.

The answer lays in stopping our 25 to 35 year old Aussie born kids from leaving permanently. That is the critical issue now and one which we must focus on. Not stopping or reducing immigration as that is the choice of the person and not really dictated by policy. We could open our doors completely and still not find that people want to come here from the developed countries. We are going to have to start to complete with the other Ageing countries for immigrants and that will not be easy as other countries who have popped their property bubble are now far more economically attractive.
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Jordan
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kennyjaiz
13 Jan 2011, 04:45 PM
It's fine to be against immigration, but it's not okay to be discriminatory based on their race (you mentioned Asian Ghetto) and religion (you mentioned Muslims). Do you even get that you are being discriminatory?
Be careful Kenny calling an opinion discriminatory or should we all watch what we think and say now our new masters have made the rules?

I do not want Muslims in Australia Kenny. That is not discrimination that is my view and my opinion.

It becomes discrimination when I will not hire someone for a role they are qualified for on the basis of race.

You are misusing the word discrimination as so many do.

I do not like cultures that think it is acceptable to fly a plane into a building and will freely admit that and I think they should stay in the loser countries from which they came. That is also not discrimination but just my personal opinion.

I do not like having to see signs up in many languages saying that spitting is unacceptable in Australia as it can spreads tuberculosis and other contagious diseases only to see some guy hawking a huge one up right next to the sign and then proceed to spit it on the footpath. I object that we even have a name for them and people call them chinese oysters and just say step around them. I would put that person on the next plane myself Kenny. We have a right to a clean healthy environment and these repeat offenders should know better, but oh no, we must respect their culture even if it gives disease to the rest of us.



Edited by Jordan, 13 Jan 2011, 07:41 PM.
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kennyjaiz
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Jordan
13 Jan 2011, 04:32 PM
That is not an understanding of why it was done but rather a description of what has occurred.

Yes, we have gone from a policy of immigration that favored the import of people into Australia that shared similar cultural values such as a christianity and democracy to one that says we no longer care where you are from or what you believe in as long as you spend money.

I think Australia would be a far better place to live today if we had continued to run a policy of immigration that favored people that are most similiar to us over those that are not.

People should just stay in their own countries and do what they can to make it a better place to live rather than come leeching of other nations just because their birth country is not a fair or democratic place to live. Why do people from countries that have zero respect for our way of life wish to come live here anyway.

The real Chinese heroes and patriots are those that stay in China, and even though they are currently losing, they keep fighting for justice and democracy. Not the cowards that immigrate here. Same can be said of any country, whether that be Burma or Thailand.
Based on what you've just said, I'm not convinced you are aware of the reasons of the change. Religious belief (e.g. Christianity) was actually not a criteria for the "White Australia Policy" from 1901 to 1950s. This may or may not be correct, as it is just my perception. There are economic and political agendas that rendered the Immigration Restriction Act defunct.

There is a good 3 part series on SBS called "Immigration Nation", you may find it interesting.

I won't comment on your personal preference and what you think people should and should not do, because they are exactly that - personal opinions. I am happy to inform you that I do not share the same mentality.
Edited by kennyjaiz, 13 Jan 2011, 05:55 PM.
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