Chris linked a bank SVR. Presumably an averaged SVR.
What he probably doesn't know is that it was very difficult to get bank loans then, so many people borrowed through Building Societies which were about 1% higher plus they forced the borrower to take out life insurance through them plus some other added costs which are not around today. Sydneyite may have been borrowing at higher rates than the Bank SVR quoted. I won't bother to mention the rates charged by Finance Companies who also lent for housing, but at much higher interest rates.
I'm constantly amazed by people who have no knowledge of history, but who quote it inaccurately to make an inaccurate point. Edited by Rufus, 5 Jul 2017, 09:57 PM.
I'm quite amazed by the same thing, please provide hard data supporting your assertion that banks were relegated to minority lenders in the mortgage market to be surpassed by non bank lenders during the 1990's.
You are a twit sometimes Rufus
I have no idea why you exaggerated what I said beyond any reasonable interpretation, but it's what you seem to do. I never said banks became minority lenders.
I suggest that you take more care in future and stop creating unnecessary strawman arguments, you end up arguing an imaginary point with yourself, and you still lose the argument.
The consortium of vested interests who run this site are looking extremely desperate to silence me. I would have thought such a horribly wrong person like this 'Chris' you speak of would be ignored rather than the need to post such diatribes quoting him. That took a lot of work, numerous paragraphs and research to boot just to find the quotes mmmmmmm. That's a lot of effort for a 'mum and dad' investor, don't you think?! Way to oust yourself shill 👍.
You are an idiot if you think you are getting wealthier just because the home your living in grows in value. If you are living in it, not leveraging off it for any credit or investments then it doesn't matter if it worth $10mil it's just shelter for you. Are you saying a 95 yr old pensioner, who lives in Mosman in a $5mil home and wants to live out her days there, is getting richer if the home rises to $6m? What if it goes to $8m?
What if by her 97 birthday it falls in value to $3.5mil, is she poorer?
Don't misinterpret what I've written, you are scared people will twig to the bullshit propaganda that drives these bubbles. You know damn well the MAJORITY of home owners fit this mould, they simply pay their mortgage and have no other investments or credit drawn from their mortgage l, they simply treat it as a home. House price rises mean nothing for these people until they use the equity to invest, which we know most don't.
As for Rufus banking comment he was wrong. He stated that non-bank lenders became the majority lenders.
I must say though it's nice to see such a concerted effort to denigrate the 'non-believer', it makes it all feel worthwhile 🤗
Hey Sydneyite, you know when you brought your house in Sydney in the early 90's for when prices were 5 times the average income, why do you believe that FHB's today are lazy or stupid because they struggle to buy at 12-14 times average incomes?
Why do you think home ownership for those between 24-35 yrs has fallen to 33% and expected to fall bellow 30% mark in the 2016 census stats, below the figures recorded since the 1950's?
Why do you think they have tended lower since 2001 when house prices in Sydney first became seriously unaffordable at 10x incomes?
Right now I have multiple bank accounts Chris (all with the same bank).
A spendings account (where I put money that I can spend on leisure/entertainment/just general wants each week) A bills account (self explanatory, all bills come out of it, including groceries) A savings account (self explanatory, I put all my savings in there)
Let's hypothetically say I had $5m in my savings account. Now I don't spend from this account, so if it went to $6m am I richer? What if it goes to $8m?
What if by my 97th birthday I get scammed and it goes down to $3.5m, am I poorer? It's just my savings so I'm not physically using it.
You say money is different because you can spend it immediately. I tell you what, if I put an $8m house on the market for 100 - 200k cheaper than the going rate, I bet it'd sell very quickly (assuming it's in a decent location). You bears act like people are locked into a house, that it's so hard to sell, that there's no way you can get your money quickly. If you want a quick sale you price it for a quick sale.
By your argument, you are saying unless you are spending your money then you are not wealthy. Who do you think is more wealthy, someone who earns $1m a year and spends all of it, or someone that earns $1m a year and saves/invests half of it?
The reason why people don't spend all their money and have 'rainy day money' is exactly for that reason - a rainy day. So yes, the value of their house matters because as a last resort, that's what they'll be relying on. If a 97 year old burnt through their savings since they didn't expect to live to 97, they could sell their house, rent their remaining years and have plenty of spending money or do the reverse mortgage thing that people have discussed (I'm personally not familiar with that). The value of the house then dictates what spending money/rent they can afford. Therefore it does matter what the value of their house is. If they die having done none of those options, it doesn't matter because they had it there for a rainy day. You get 2 guys, a renter and a person who owns a house and you hit them with 200k medical bills. The renter can't afford it, the home owner sells their home even though they never thought they would. The home owner can afford treatment and the renter can't, if the home owner can afford treatment then wouldn't they be wealthier?
Also like Herb said, what is your retirement plan Chris? You must have a pretty solid plan to be able to rent in retirement.
The consortium of vested interests who run this site are looking extremely desperate to silence me.
One person runs this site and if I was desperate to silence you I would suspend your account. Since 2010 when APF opened no bull or bear has ever been silenced for expressing their views on property or economic matters. Members are only silenced (suspended) for breaking one of the forum rules below. If members do not break these rules I have no desire to silence anyone.
You agree you won't use this forum to post material that is illegal, private, defamatory, pornographic, excessively abusive or profane, threatening, or invasive of another forum member's privacy. Don't post NSFW content. Racist or ethnic slurs and homophobic comments aren't tolerated. Accusing forum members of serious crimes like sexual assault, child abuse and murder is not permitted. Accusations, attacks, abuse or threats, litigious or otherwise, directed against the forum or forum administrators aren't tolerated and will result in immediate suspension of your account for a number of days depending on the severity of the attack. No spamming or advertising in the main forum.
Let's hypothetically say I had $5m in my savings account. Now I don't spend from this account, so if it went to $6m am I richer? What if it goes to $8m?
What if by my 97th birthday I get scammed and it goes down to $3.5m, am I poorer? It's just my savings so I'm not physically using it.
Oh god you are so incredibly dense.
Houses aren't worthless, they have no value to you if you simply live in them and do nothing else with it, which as has been discussed is the MAJORITY.
If you sell an $8mil home for $8m then that's what your richer by, but as long as its you shelter it is of no value to you at all unless you do what the minority do and leverage of it or reverse mortgage.
Even trading up or down is neither here nor there because homes in adjoining price points general fall and rise in unison so the value really doesn't become a hugely significant win because as your home rises to $1m (yeeeeeaaaah 👍) The place you want to upgrade to probably went up to 1.2mil and the place you thought of downsizing to went up to $800k.
Only the minority investors benefit the most from house price rises.
To argue anything else is just futile.
Admin
17 Jul 2017, 10:32 AM
One person runs this site and if I was desperate to silence you I would suspend your account. Since 2010 when APF opened no bull or bear has ever been silenced for expressing their views on property or economic matters. Members are only silenced (suspended) for breaking one of the forum rules below. If members do not break these rules I have no desire to silence anyone.
You agree you won't use this forum to post material that is illegal, private, defamatory, pornographic, excessively abusive or profane, threatening, or invasive of another forum member's privacy. Don't post NSFW content. Racist or ethnic slurs and homophobic comments aren't tolerated. Accusing forum members of serious crimes like sexual assault, child abuse and murder is not permitted. Accusations, attacks, abuse or threats, litigious or otherwise, directed against the forum or forum administrators aren't tolerated and will result in immediate suspension of your account for a number of days depending on the severity of the attack. No spamming or advertising in the main forum.
Poor wording, I meant vested interests of other posters, in my mind there are several who control all threads (therefore the site) and portray themselves as 'mum and dad' investors but clearly are not.
I meant vested interests of other posters, in my mind there are several who control all threads (therefore the site) and portray themselves as 'mum and dad' investors but clearly are not.
The problem with what is "in your mind" Chris is that it largely bears no resemblance to reality. The majority of posters and by extension posts on this forum are from dyed in the wool doomsday world ending bears. They are also the ones in the main throwing the first stones in any debate, accusing people of lying, calling them shills, parasites, wishing cancer and other incurable diseases on them, accusing others of being socks and so on.
You are their poster boy. It isn't something you should be proud of either
So instead of making up more excuses and claiming you were misinterpreted when you weren't why don't you grow up and apologise to Alex?
My only hope for my three boys is that they turn out nothing at all like Chris.
Houses aren't worthless, they have no value to you if you simply live in them and do nothing else with it, which as has been discussed is the MAJORITY.
Really? So if I own a house, and pay no rent to live in it, because I own it, that has no value??? And what if the value of my PPOR increases BECAUSE rents generally are rising? If I didn't own the house I would have to pay more rent to live in an equivalent property - so therefore the value I derive from living rent free in my own house has surely just increased?
Quote:
Even trading up or down is neither here nor there because homes in adjoining price points general fall and rise in unison so the value really doesn't become a hugely significant win because as your home rises to $1m (yeeeeeaaaah 👍) The place you want to upgrade to probably went up to 1.2mil and the place you thought of downsizing to went up to $800k.
You are also completely wrong here.
In the downsizing scenario, the greater the over-all property price rise, the more an owner would pocket if they downsize. This is simple maths. The difference between values of the current and downsized house will always be greater in $ terms if both increase by the same %.
In the up-sizing scenario, you are also wrong - while it is true rising prices increase the cost of upgrading to a current owner, the cost of buying the upgraded property increases even MORE for a non-owner (ie current renting bear awaiting a crash). So the PPOR owner absolutely has more wealth, and more ability to use that wealth to acquire better property than the equivalent non-owner, who truly does not see any increase in wealth if property values rise. So it is absolutely correct that the wealth of the PPOR owner has increased - and this is obvious when you compare the cost of buying the "next house" for the current PPOR owner vs the equivalent renter - renter would have had to increase their wealth through some other means to be in the same position.
Re your other crap:
Quote:
Wow!
The consortium of vested interests who run this site are looking extremely desperate to silence me. I would have thought such a horribly wrong person like this 'Chris' you speak of would be ignored rather than the need to post such diatribes quoting him. That took a lot of work, numerous paragraphs and research to boot just to find the quotes mmmmmmm. That's a lot of effort for a 'mum and dad' investor, don't you think?! Way to oust yourself shill 👍.
That post wasn't that hard to write at all - I only had to look at a couple of pages of this very thread to grab all your incorrect statements and examples of the abuse you regularly throw at everyone else. I wrote it while eating lunch!
Typical anyway, that when exposed as a liar, hopelessly wrong on basically everything, and an idiot to boot, your reaction is to assume that everyone else is a sock or a shill.
You need to take a good look in the mirror Chris - I thought you had hope a while ago when you wrote some posts admitting how wrong you have been about the housing market in the past - a bunch of posts that oh so ironically saw YOU attacked by numerous bears as being a sock, a shill, a bull plant and so on!!
That post wasn't that hard to write at all - I only had to look at a couple of pages of this very thread to grab all your incorrect statements and examples of the abuse you regularly throw at everyone else. I wrote it while eating lunch!
Typical anyway, that when exposed as a liar, hopelessly wrong on basically everything, and an idiot to boot, your reaction is to assume that everyone else is a sock or a shill.
You need to take a good look in the mirror Chris - I thought you had hope a while ago when you wrote some posts admitting how wrong you have been about the housing market in the past - a bunch of posts that oh so ironically saw YOU attacked by numerous bears as being a sock, a shill, a bull plant and so on!!
... portray themselves as 'mum and dad' investors but clearly are not.
'N who precisely might they be Chris? (In your opinion.) - Just ta specifically calls ya on a bit more of ya apparent innuendo?
Chris
17 Jul 2017, 11:40 AM
Only the minority investors benefit the most from house price rises.
To argue anything else is just futile.
Woz talkin' ta ole mate recently - Had ta whack his mum inta care wif dementia he did. Cost bein' $450K - Which is pretty much wot she got from tha sale of her home ta pay for it.
Didn't ask where she would've ended up if she'd not had some shitbox SEQ property ta be flogged ta pay for it - But I doubt I'd have enjoyed tha answer if I had asked.
Hmmm - Ya life experience 'n just general understandin' of just pretty much everything in general just seems ta be so extraordinarily limited/narrow/confined Chris?
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