You can try to keep it safe, but that doesn't guarantee it won't be stolen, or that the scammers won't be able to obtain a new one from the titles office, or create a convincing forgery.
That gives the scammers multiple ways to sell your home without your permission. And once it has been sold, you will not get it back. You might get some compensation if you're lucky.
When changes are made, a new Title is created, superseding other titles, unless the new Title is fraudulently contrived, in which case, the previous title stands.
That statement is entirely wrong.
The whole essence of the Torrens system is that new Titles are indefeasible and previous titles cannot be restored. This is the whole purpose behind the Torrens system ie that newly registered owners are given title regardless of past fraud or whatever.
I suppose the intention is to give assurance to newly registered owners. However, such assurance has no actual endurance and ownership can be lost at any time through fraud.
Torrens deals with property ownership very differently to all other forms of ownership. If a car is stolen (by fraud or however) ownership remains with the original owner regardless of future sales of the car. Torrens disposes of this very logical law. It sucks. I have transacted properties in the UK which were not under the Torrens system. There were no problems - the conveyancing solicitors did their job.
If the Registrar doesn't sight the Certificate, then the whole process is illegal and the owner retains the property.
You have absolutely no way to prove this is true and all evidence is to the contrary.
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This is not difficult Trollie.
Pathetic
Quote:
Keep your Certificate safe
Keep your identity safe. Without your identity nobody can steal your property. With your identity your title is a meaningless piece of paper that can be replaced with patience
Ex BP Golly
1 Jul 2017, 04:38 AM
As long as I retain the CT, any sale, transfer etc is illegal as the Registrar will have failed in his legislated duty to sight the Certificate
Wrong. Absolutely wrong on every level.
If your identity is stolen and a new CT produced under the same mechanisms that you yourself can get a new CT issued if you lose yours then the Registrar will have sighted a legitimate CT, done his job exactly as legislated and you have become a victim of fraud.
If you become a victim of fraud you are not entitled to have your property returned to you under legislation, rather you are entitled to compensation.
Nobody is debating with you that if your identity remains safe that you will never lose your property. Not one of us.
But if you seriously believe that if your identity is stolen, a genuine copy of your CT acquired by the thieves in the same manner you yourself can acquire one and your property sold that you will be entitled to have your property returned to you then Iam sorry to say but you are the dumbest prick I have ever encountered.
Rufus
30 Jun 2017, 11:30 PM
If Golly had his ID stolen the criminals would still have to get their hands on the Certificate of Title that he holds before they could benefit. It would take another level of planning and sophistication to either counterfeit his CT or go through the process of applying for another title deed, so he does have that added layer of protection.
Not being debated, equally not impossible to pass either.
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Note that generally there is no CT issued, so most fraudsters wouldn't be prepared for it.
The mere fact that property fraud is so rare is testament to this. However again it does not change the fact that there is risk, no matter how small, nor that in the event of identity theft and fraud Golly's position that his property will be returned to him with compensation for loss of income and damage is 100% absolutely dead wrong.
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Whether holding a CT makes any difference to the outcome of any fraud in regard to compensation or the return of the property is something that I don't know.
the new CT would be in the name of the new purchaser and held by them (if owned outright) or their bank (if mortgaged). He would get compensation as the Canberra woman did. His house is no longer his house. The new owner is protected. That is fact.
The point Golly misses is that the layer of protection that is stronger than the piece of paper that he has so much faith in is that fraudsters will need to steal the identities of all people on the registered title to create the duplicate and complete the transaction. If I steal his wallet I can be him, but I also need his wifes handbag. I note from my limited research that it seems IP's are stolen not PPOR's (which makes sense as most of us would notice a For Sale sign out the front of our PPOR's) and that they seem to be in the name of a single owner (probably for tax reason). Spear Phishers target easy marks. I would suggest property fraudsters would do the same.
At any rate the simple fact is that Golly is placing too much faith in protecting a piece of paper and absolutely zero credit to protecting his identity. But 2 different threads and 100 posts into this "debate" he is too pig headed arrogant to admit that he is wrong.
The whole essence of the Torrens system is that new Titles are indefeasible and previous titles cannot be restored. This is the whole purpose behind the Torrens system ie that newly registered owners are given title regardless of past fraud or whatever.
I suppose the intention is to give assurance to newly registered owners. However, such assurance has no actual endurance and ownership can be lost at any time through fraud.
Torrens deals with property ownership very differently to all other forms of ownership. If a car is stolen (by fraud or however) ownership remains with the original owner regardless of future sales of the car. Torrens disposes of this very logical law. It sucks. I have transacted properties in the UK which were not under the Torrens system. There were no problems - the conveyancing solicitors did their job.
You to Stringbag? Shit, not one of you big time property investors has the foggiest ideas about what you are doing!
You've got to stop believing those property seminars mate.
I'll bold the relevant bits to make it a bit easier for you:
"REAL PROPERTY ACT 1900 - SECT 42 Estate of registered proprietor paramount 42 Estate of registered proprietor paramount (1) Notwithstanding the existence in any other person of any estate or interest which but for this Act might be held to be paramount or to have priority, the registered proprietor for the time being of any estate or interest in land recorded in a folio of the Register shall, except in case of fraud, hold the same, subject to such other estates and interests and such entries, if any, as are recorded in that folio, but absolutely free from all other estates and interests that are not so recorded except: (a) the estate or interest recorded in a prior folio of the Register by reason of which another proprietor claims the same land, (a1) in the case of the omission or misdescription of an easement subsisting immediately before the land was brought under the provisions of this Act or validly created at or after that time under this or any other Act or a Commonwealth Act, (b) in the case of the omission or misdescription of any profit à prendre created in or existing upon any land, (c) as to any portion of land that may by wrong description of parcels or of boundaries be included in the folio of the Register or registered dealing evidencing the title of such registered proprietor, not being a purchaser or mortgagee thereof for value, or deriving from or through a purchaser or mortgagee thereof for value, and (d) a tenancy whereunder the tenant is in possession or entitled to immediate possession, and an agreement or option for the acquisition by such a tenant of a further term to commence at the expiration of such a tenancy, of which in either case the registered proprietor before he or she became registered as proprietor had notice against which he or she was not protected: Provided that: (i) The term for which the tenancy was created does not exceed three years, and (ii) in the case of such an agreement or option, the additional term for which it provides would not, when added to the original term, exceed three years. (2) In subsection (1), a reference to an estate or interest in land recorded in a folio of the Register includes a reference to an estate or interest recorded in a registered mortgage, charge or lease that may be directly or indirectly identified from a distinctive reference in that folio. (3) This section prevails over any inconsistent provision of any other Act or law unless the inconsistent provision expressly provides that it is to have effect despite anything contained in this section."
And:
" REAL PROPERTY ACT 1900 - SECT 118 Registered proprietor protected except in certain cases 118 Registered proprietor protected except in certain cases (1) Proceedings for the possession or recovery of land do not lie against the registered proprietor of the land, except as follows: (a) proceedings brought by a mortgagee against a mortgagor in default, (b) proceedings brought by a chargee or covenant chargee against a charger or covenant charger in default, (c) proceedings brought by a lessor against a lessee in default, (d) proceedings brought by a person deprived of land by fraud against: (i) a person who has been registered as proprietor of the land through fraud, or (ii) a person deriving (otherwise than as a transferee bona fide for valuable consideration) from or through a person registered as proprietor of the land through fraud, (e) proceedings brought by a person deprived of, or claiming, land that (by reason of the misdescription of other land or its boundaries) has been included in a folio of the Register for the other land against a person who has been registered as proprietor of the other land (otherwise than as a transferee bona fide for valuable consideration), (f) proceedings brought by a registered proprietor under an earlier folio of the Register against a registered proprietor under a later folio of the Register where the two folios have been created for the same land.
Matthew
1 Jul 2017, 12:12 PM
If your identity is stolen and a new CT produced under the same mechanisms that you yourself can get a new CT issued if you lose yours then the Registrar will have sighted a legitimate CT, done his job exactly as legislated and you have become a victim of fraud.
If you become a victim of fraud you are not entitled to have your property returned to you under legislation, rather you are entitled to compensation.
Nobody is debating with you that if your identity remains safe that you will never lose your property. Not one of us blah blah blah...
the registered proprietor for the time being of any estate or interest in land recorded in a folio of the Register shall, except in case of fraud
That only applies if the buyer committed a fraudulent act. If the buyer purchased in good faith, then the buyer did not engage in fraud and they have indefeasible title. As we've seen from all the examples where this has happened around Australia, the original owner never gets their home back, because the new owner purchased in good faith and has indefeasible title. The party who committed fraud is generally in Nigeria. As everyone has explained to you, when your home is sold fraudulently to an innocent buyer, then you will not get it back. You might get some compensation if you're lucky. Many forum members have explained this to you. Nobody has agreed with your ridiculous claims.
That only applies if the buyer committed a fraudulent act. If the buyer purchased in good faith, then the buyer did not engage in fraud and they have indefeasible title. As we've seen from all the examples where this has happened around Australia, the original owner never gets their home back, because the new owner purchased in good faith and has indefeasible title. The party who committed fraud is generally in Nigeria. As everyone has explained to you, when your home is sold fraudulently to an innocent buyer, then you will not get it back. You might get some compensation if you're lucky. Many forum members have explained this to you. Nobody has agreed with your ridiculous claims.
You can refuse to understand the English language all you like, however the legislation is clear Shoddy.
WHAT WOULD EDDIE DO? MAAAATE! Share a cot with Milton?
"May be", but it's unlikely. It would only be revoked in the unlikely event the buyer is the person who committed the fraud. In that case there is somebody to prosecute because the actual buyer is the one who broke the law, so you might get the property back.
However if your printout is stolen or counterfeited by Nigerian scammers, or they fake your identity to obtain a replacement copy, then they can sell your home to a third party. The third party did not break the law, and the home now rightfully belongs to them. Their title is indefeasible and your printout is worthless. You will not get the property back. There is nobody to prosecute - the scammers are long gone. You might be compensated by the government after a lengthy and stressful court battle. No guarantees.
Golly, this fact is clearly troubling you, considering the number of threads in which you're now raving about it. I suggest you obtain a mortgage to safeguard your property against this happening.
Wrong.
The legislation is clear:
"REAL PROPERTY ACT 1900 - SECT 118 Registered proprietor protected except in certain cases 118 Registered proprietor protected except in certain cases (1) Proceedings for the possession or recovery of land do not lie against the registered proprietor of the land, except as follows: ...(d) proceedings brought by a person deprived of land by fraud against: (i) a person who has been registered as proprietor of the land through fraud.
It's very simple Shoddy.
Only a criminally inclined morally bereft piece of human excrement could believe that the law would have it any other way.
Could you imagine what would happen to house prices if consumers believed that all their hard work could be destroyed by criminals as easily as you describe, and that the law then stands against them seeking remedy?
House process would be destroyed.
Sheesh, renters would be far better protected then landlords!
"REAL PROPERTY ACT 1900 - SECT 118 Registered proprietor protected except in certain cases 118 Registered proprietor protected except in certain cases (1) Proceedings for the possession or recovery of land do not lie against the registered proprietor of the land, except as follows: ...(d) proceedings brought by a person deprived of land by fraud against: (i) a person who has been registered as proprietor of the land through fraud.
It's very simple Shoddy.
Only a criminally inclined morally bereft piece of human excrement could believe that the law would have it any other way.
Could you imagine what would happen to house prices if consumers believed that all their hard work could be destroyed by criminals as easily as you describe, and that the law then stands against them seeking remedy?
House process would be destroyed.
Sheesh, renters would be far better protected then landlords!
I'm just telling you what happens, you can argue all you want it's still reality.
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