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Speech on Land Titles; The heart of our system of land ownership
Topic Started: 18 Jun 2017, 04:52 PM (6,555 Views)
Ex BP Golly
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Just an excerpt of a fascinating topic that I thought would be better understood on this forum.

Given the poor state state of knowledge, please enjoy:[url=www.registrargeneral.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/113288/Address_to_AIC_NSW_annual_conference_October_2016.pdf]www.registrargeneral.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/113288/Address_to_AIC_NSW_annual_conference_October_2016.pdf[/URL]




Opening address to the Australian Institute of
Conveyancers
(AIC NSW) annual conference
‘Change matters’

Jeremy Cox, NSW Registrar General
22 October 2016


....Legislation and change
Let me start with legislation. And move straight to one of our most important drivers of change – Robert Torrens.
Because of Torrens, registration creates title, and that title is indefeasible.
On 1 January 1863, the Torrens System came into effect in NSW—over 150 years ago. But in NSW it didn’t come easily. Many were against it.
Parliamentary committees and other stakeholders worried that NSW would be taking on too big a change, with no proof of success.

Nevertheless the case for change was powerful.
For too long it had been difficult for property owners to mortgage, sell and buy property. People interested in buying land had to employ lawyers to track backwards through previous transactions, often as far back as the
original land grant.

This process was tedious and expensive and could be
inconclusive. The need for conveyancing reform was acknowledged even in England.

The cause of this problem was rooted in the very beginnings of the NSW colony.
In the 1790s Governor Phillip had been in the habit of granting lots of land—up to 30 acres—to ex-convicts to try to keep them here because London didn’t want them back! And he granted marines and free migrants
up to 100 acres each also as an incentive to stay.
Unfortunately there was no way of recording any of this. Grants were supposed to pass under the seal of the territory, but someone forgot to pack the seal… Can you imagine.


The First Fleet of 11 ships, carrying more than 1,000 convicts, marines and seamen, and a vast quantity of
stores, but no seal! [You could ask ‘where were the NSW conveyancers when the ships were being packed!?’]
Finally a seal arrived in September 1791. But until then land was given away without record. The first ever officially recorded grant was to James
Ruse dated 22 February 1792. That’s 214 years ago.
However, even with the seal, there was no official record of land transactions. And grants continued to be given away quickly.

Apparentlysoldiers were passing land to ex-convicts with nothing more than a scrap
of paper with the words “AB has my permission to settle”. These informal land deals led to land disputes—which were quickly clogging the colony’s civil court system.
Finally, on 13 November 1800, Governor King created the first public record of land transfers. For a short time, four books were kept at Sydney, Parramatta and the Hawkesbury, signed each week by the principle
magistrate of each locality. These eventually became what is now the Old Register.

A small change, important but not enough. Problems remained. Many buyers and sellers continued to take the risk and not register as it was not compulsory. This went on for many years. With time it became more and
more difficult to track a chain of ownership, which made land dealings risky, slow, and tedious.
By the mid 1850s, NSW had the worst of the old and new worlds. It had long chains of title and because, unlike England, land did not remain in the same families from generation to generation, it made sub-division so much
more complex.

By 1862, NSW was the only colony apart from WA which had not adopted
the Torrens system.
Interestingly, the Torrens System while so easy to celebrate now, was
considered by some as controversial at the time. It was new and untested.
Many had greater interest in preserving the status quo.
Now of course, the Torrens System is regarded an innovation that
Australia has taken to the rest of world. People talk about the hills hoist as
being a great invention. But without the security of land ownership, backed
by the state, the hills hoist may not have taken off!
The lesson perhaps is that change that matters takes time—but hopefully
common sense prevails in the end. I suppose the question is what is the
cost to individuals or society by not delivering change in a timely way
For NSW, Torrens did a number of things. It helped deal with many of its
sick titles leftover from the early days of colonisation. It also helped sub-
dividers ready to cash in on Sydney’s rising population feel more secure.
More broadly most recognise the Torrens System is now a key pillar
supporting democracy and development in NSW.
Almost one hundred years later, NSW underwent the next most substantial
legislative change to the way we administer the land title system.
In the 1960s the demand for housing was sustained by high levels of
immigration and the baby boomers were coming of age.
The emergence of Sydney as a financial centre increased demand for
office space and high-rise projects. Apartment buildings also seemed a
good solution to post-war housing shortages.
But surprisingly few blocks were being built. Red tape was tying things up.
The only adequate method of dividing ownership was company title, which
had a number of defects, such as the difficulty of instituting mortgages.
In 1961, NSW introduced new strata legislation that gave the owners of
flats, offices and professional chambers a title which equated, as far as
possible, with Torrens title. It became possible to register a strata plan
which specified the separate lots and units contained in the apartment
building. Their boundaries were defined by reference to floors, walls and
ceilings.
This change resulted from an interesting alliance between private
enterprise and government expertise. The developer, Civil and Civic Pty
Ltd was pressing for a secure form of title for flat buyers. The Registrar
General then helped devise the Solution.

This uniquely NSW—and then Australian—innovation worked well.
Apartment buildings grew rapidly. And it has now been exported to other
parts of the world.
Interestingly, around 50 years later, the strata approach is being further
refined. More change, more innovation. Only this time, the aim is different.
The Strata Schemes Development Act and Strata Schemes Management
Act will commence on 30 November 2016. The new laws make around 90
reforms to the existing strata legislation, much of which is over 50 years
old. They will impact on around 30 per cent of people living and working in
strata schemes in Sydney.
The reforms to the Management Act will improve and modernise the way
strata schemes are managed, reducing unnecessary red tape and making
running a strata scheme easier. For example, owners corporations will
now be able to use modern forms of communication for meetings and
voting, it brings a common-sense approach to owner renovations and
makes it easier for schemes to enforce their by-laws, including repeat
offences.
Perhaps the most significant issue in the reform is under the Development
Act.
Currently owners who wish to renew or redevelop their scheme could be
blocked by just one individual who does not want to participate.
Application may be made to the Supreme Court but this process is costly,
time consuming, adversarial and does not encourage negotiation.
The strata reforms introduce a mechanism for termination of a strata
scheme with the approval of not all, but at least 75 per cent of owners. It is
designed to provide a fair and transparent process through several stages,
with a number of significant safeguards to ensure the interests of owners
re protected, particularly those who don’t wish to sell.
The strata renewal regime recognises the need for urban renewal and
allows for the future growth of Sydney and surrounding areas. This is the
underlying driver of change.
NSW has an ageing stock of strata buildings. Over 30 per cent of strata
schemes are now over 30 years old. Some of the buildings themselves are
nearing 100 years old. Many do not meet current building standards or are
unable to retrofit environmental features that would make the building
more energy efficient.
And current renewal processes are inadequate. Of the approximately
72,000 strata schemes in NSW, there have been only 826 strata.

terminations. This is mostly because of the difficult process required to
terminate a strata scheme.
Freeing up potential sites for new housing supply is in the public interest.
An older strata complex on a small block of land could be replaced by a
larger, higher density building, with more lots, meeting the ongoing
demand for more affordable residential housing.
Importantly, the new scheme, which allows for a less than unanimous
agreement of owners, has built-in safeguards and protections for lot
owners.

Technological change
......(there is more able to be read at








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Trollie
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Of course they wouldn't admit to the obvious problems with paper titles, their whole livelihood is based on over priced fees to push said paper around and in the cases people have lost their properties conveyance firms would be neck deep in the whole shit fight :lol
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herbie
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Different rules in different States by tha sounds Golly?

By tha sounds of this shit us Cane Toads is required ta surrender our ole paper title deeds on selling:

"If a paper certificate of title exists, you must return the certificate of title when you lodge a transfer or other instrument for the property. You do not need to complete another form - simply include the certificate as part of your documentation."

And ...

"You may return your paper certificate of title at any time if you no longer require it." (Plus do some paperwork to cover off on returning it - Blah blah).

Source: https://www.business.qld.gov.au/industries/building-property-development/titles-property-surveying/titles-property/transactions/cancelling-certificate-title/returning

'Tho it's a good point I 'spose. 'N I should look inta whether I'm actually required ta have me ole paper title deed on tha one I've got from back in days tha when they were still issued here should me or me heirs ever wanna sell it it I 'spose.
Edited by herbie, 18 Jun 2017, 06:08 PM.
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Matthew
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herbie
18 Jun 2017, 06:05 PM
Different rules in different States by tha sounds Golly?

By tha sounds of this shit us Cane Toads is required ta surrender our ole paper title deeds on selling:

"If a paper certificate of title exists, you must return the certificate of title when you lodge a transfer or other instrument for the property. You do not need to complete another form - simply include the certificate as part of your documentation."

And ...

"You may return your paper certificate of title at any time if you no longer require it." (Plus do some paperwork to cover off on returning it - Blah blah).

Source: https://www.business.qld.gov.au/industries/building-property-development/titles-property-surveying/titles-property/transactions/cancelling-certificate-title/returning

'Tho it's a good point I 'spose. 'N I should look inta whether I'm actually required ta have me ole paper title deed on tha one I've got from back in days tha when they were still issued here should me or me heirs ever wanna sell it it I 'spose.
The problem Golly has is he thinks he is an expert of all things in all states, or thinks that all states do as NSW do. Either way he is wrong. What we have on display here is pig headed arrogance and immaturity. Nothing more. Nothing less.
My only hope for my three boys is that they turn out nothing at all like Chris.
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Rufus
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herbie
18 Jun 2017, 06:05 PM
Different rules in different States by tha sounds Golly?

By tha sounds of this shit us Cane Toads is required ta surrender our ole paper title deeds on selling:

"If a paper certificate of title exists, you must return the certificate of title when you lodge a transfer or other instrument for the property. You do not need to complete another form - simply include the certificate as part of your documentation."

And ...

"You may return your paper certificate of title at any time if you no longer require it." (Plus do some paperwork to cover off on returning it - Blah blah).

Source: https://www.business.qld.gov.au/industries/building-property-development/titles-property-surveying/titles-property/transactions/cancelling-certificate-title/returning

'Tho it's a good point I 'spose. 'N I should look inta whether I'm actually required ta have me ole paper title deed on tha one I've got from back in days tha when they were still issued here should me or me heirs ever wanna sell it it I 'spose.
To the best of my knowledge the rules in all states that have converted to electronic titles are the same. I don't know if all states have converted yet.
Under the old system, there were two original title deeds, one held by the lands office and one held by the owner, or the mortgagor.

Under the electronic system there is no copy held by the owner or mortgagor. Therefore property ownership can be transferred from the existing owner to someone else without their knowledge or consent, if the perpetrator has the knowledge of how to do this, and they have the trust of some people involved. There have been some cases of fraudulent property transactions, so although it's very unlikely it can happen.

But there is a second system in place, where titles are electronic AND a paper title exists. The state lands office has the electronic title, AND the owner or the mortgagor hold the paper title. In other words this system mimics the old Torrens system.

What that means is no transaction can occur on the property title without the production of that paper title. In simple terms what this means is you can go on a three year European holiday and leave the paper title locked in a safe custody box, and no one can illegally deal in your property unless you give them access to that paper title.

In effect it is one more layer of security to guard against property fraud.

Like any security system it can be beaten because there is a system of getting a duplicate title issued when they are lost, but that takes some time because the process is longwinded, but it would still stop your kids from selling your house from under you when you went away for a long holiday.
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Trollie
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Oh dear golly it looks like in additional to the facts disagreeing with you, everyone else does as well :re:
Rufus
18 Jun 2017, 07:25 PM


Like any security system it can be beaten because there is a system of getting a duplicate title issued when they are lost
Don't tell golly that, he'll lose his mind.
Edited by Trollie, 18 Jun 2017, 08:06 PM.
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Ex BP Golly
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Trollie
18 Jun 2017, 08:03 PM
Oh dear golly it looks like in additional to the facts disagreeing with you, everyone else does as well :re:

Don't tell golly that, he'll lose his mind.
I'm fine, I have my Certificates of Title.

If you don't want yours, that's fine- fraudsters need easy marks.
herbie
18 Jun 2017, 06:05 PM
Different rules in different States by tha sounds Golly?

By tha sounds of this shit us Cane Toads is required ta surrender our ole paper title deeds on selling:

"If a paper certificate of title exists, you must return the certificate of title when you lodge a transfer or other instrument for the property. You do not need to complete another form - simply include the certificate as part of your documentation."

And ...

"You may return your paper certificate of title at any time if you no longer require it." (Plus do some paperwork to cover off on returning it - Blah blah).

Source: https://www.business.qld.gov.au/industries/building-property-development/titles-property-surveying/titles-property/transactions/cancelling-certificate-title/returning

'Tho it's a good point I 'spose. 'N I should look inta whether I'm actually required ta have me ole paper title deed on tha one I've got from back in days tha when they were still issued here should me or me heirs ever wanna sell it it I 'spose.
As I've been saying Herbie, no transaction can occur without the paper title being presented.

It's a safety system.

When changes are made, a new Title is created, superseding other titles, unless the new Title is fraudulently contrived, in which case, the previous title stands.

State governments also have insurance schemes in place, but guys what, holding the title gets you over most of the problems.

Not holding the Certificate means a while world of Shiite as you have to go through he'll to prove a fraud was committed.

Edited by Ex BP Golly, 18 Jun 2017, 09:43 PM.
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A Lurker
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I actually think everyone understands this process well and we are all on the same page. It's just that there is a wide perceived view of the importance of holding the current duplicate certificate of title paper thingy.

I'll pose a little thought experiment for you.

You are looking to buy a holiday house up the coast and come across an ad. You go and check it out and like it and the price. You meet the owner. You have the cash available and she has no mortgage and therefore has the certificate of title at the house. She has ample proof of ID that matches the name on the title.

Assuming you don't care or are otherwise satisfied with planning status, flood areas etc, do you:

A. Go get a bank cheque and hand it over for title and a transfer document signed by the lady?

B. Get your lawyer to run a title search to see if the name on the piece of paper she holds matches the official record at the land titles office and then have the lawyers proceed to settle the transaction and arrange for the transaction to be recorded at the land titles office?

C. There is no C.

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Ex BP Golly
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A Lurker
18 Jun 2017, 11:39 PM
I actually think everyone understands this process well and we are all on the same page. It's just that there is a wide perceived view of the importance of holding the current duplicate certificate of title paper thingy.
Ouch!
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Ex BP Golly
19 Jun 2017, 02:17 AM
Ouch!
Not interested in answering the little thought experiment?
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