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"Investor grade" building materials kills 12 (and counting) in the heart of london; Chinese fire proof cladding (gasp) catches fire
Topic Started: 15 Jun 2017, 09:07 AM (4,613 Views)
Blondie girl
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herbie
16 Jun 2017, 12:14 PM
Reads like it's council owned ta me?

"The tower is managed by Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), the largest tenant management organisation (TMO) in England, on behalf of Kensington & Chelsea Council. The TMO has a board comprising eight residents, four Council-appointed members, and three independent members."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire#Background
What about subletting stuff?
I think some tenants would have been doing it without telling the council/agency and pocket the extra themselves.....

They're also going to have a horrible time identifying the victims because many social housing flats will have been sublet.
Rat
16 Jun 2017, 02:55 PM
So what's this all got to do with investors? Or are you just letting off steam?
It may not be about responsible investors, but its about the combination of worst aspects of public sector ineptitude together with the greed of private company.

If preventable deaths of people burning in their homes are not a matter for the state, then what is?
The Grenfell Tower victims are the faces of working-class, poor and often reliant on the state for their housing and safety.
Edited by Blondie girl, 16 Jun 2017, 04:23 PM.
Newjerk? can you try harder than dig up another person's blog. My first promo was with Billabong and my name in English is modified with a T, am Perth born but also lived in Sydney to make my $$
It's Absolutely Fabulous if it includes brilliant locations, & high calibre tenants..what more does one want? Understand the power of the two "P"" or be financially challenged
Even better when there is family who are property mad and one is born in some entitlements.....Understand that beautiful women are the exhibitionists we crave attention, whilst hot blooded men are the voyeurs ... A stunning woman can command and takes pleasure in being noticed. Seems not too many understand what it means to hold and own props and get threatened by those who do.
Banks are considered to be law abiding and & rather boring places yeah not true . A bank balance sheet will show capital is dwarfed by their liabilities this means when a portions of loans is falling its problems for the bank.
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Jimbo
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Blondie girl
16 Jun 2017, 04:04 PM
What's got me is that the new cladding apparently was fixed onto wood batoning.
The timber batten isn't the problem.

It is the configuration of flammable insulation, 38mm air gap and waterproof outer skin that is the problem and then only in a high rise situation.

In a standard house, if a room burns out through the window, the house is generally stuffed anyway and the occupants would have had time to escape.

In a high rise, it causes rapid spread of flame up the outside of the building which can't be stopped with fire hoses because of the waterproof outer skin.

This system should have never been used in anything above two storeys.

Sadly, it has been used in countless high rises all over the world.
Matthew, 30 Jan 2016, 09:21 AM Your simplistic view is so flawed it is not worth debating. The current oversupply will be swallowed in 12 months. By the time dumb shits like you realise this prices will already be :?: rising.
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Trollie
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Ex BP Golly
16 Jun 2017, 04:02 PM
I built my properties, so I know they're up to code.

It's cheaper to build then buy, and you know what you are getting.
So you personally tested every product to ensure it was up to code and installed it yourself?

Sounds like a tale worthy of mystic jim
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Rufus
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Jimbo
16 Jun 2017, 04:59 PM
The timber batten isn't the problem.

It is the configuration of flammable insulation, 38mm air gap and waterproof outer skin that is the problem and then only in a high rise situation.

In a standard house, if a room burns out through the window, the house is generally stuffed anyway and the occupants would have had time to escape.

In a high rise, it causes rapid spread of flame up the outside of the building which can't be stopped with fire hoses because of the waterproof outer skin.

This system should have never been used in anything above two storeys.

Sadly, it has been used in countless high rises all over the world.
I don't know how true this is, but this is what is circulating.

The Times says the "fire resistant" panels cost £24. The flammable £22. Making the building non-flammable would have cost £5K more.
Take risks - if you win you will become wealthy, if you lose you will become wise
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Jimbo
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Rufus
16 Jun 2017, 09:25 PM
I don't know how true this is, but this is what is circulating.

The Times says the "fire resistant" panels cost £24. The flammable £22. Making the building non-flammable would have cost £5K more.
The panels themselves, though they have a flammable core, were not the problem.

The main fuel source was the 150mm of Polyisocyanurate foam insulation (PIR) fixed directly to the walls.

A typical configuration below.

Posted Image

Rainshield systems are quite common in building and involve creating an air gap with batten and then cladding over the batten with something like hardieplank fibre cement boards (or in this case, composite aluminium panels).

The resulting cavity is ventilated by means of perforated closers (steel mesh) at the top and bottom of the structure and above every window and door.

The outer layer protects the building from rain, the cavity airs out any damp.

The application of PIR insulation behind the rainscreen provides additional thermal performance.

When the fire broke through the window of the source unit, it would have been drawn up the cavity through the perforated mesh and would have ignited the PIR insulation.

Acting as a chimney, the ventilated cavity would have drawn the flame upwards igniting all of the PIR above the source unit. The rainscreen cladding prevented the fire services from extinguishing the flame by stopping water getting to the PIR insulation.

Even if the rainscreen cladding had been 100% fireproof, the PIR insulation fixed directly to the walls would still have ignited in exactly the same way.

Fitting a system like this to a high rise was sheer madness but is perfectly within the building codes.





Edited by Jimbo, 17 Jun 2017, 09:29 PM.
Matthew, 30 Jan 2016, 09:21 AM Your simplistic view is so flawed it is not worth debating. The current oversupply will be swallowed in 12 months. By the time dumb shits like you realise this prices will already be :?: rising.
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herbie
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Jimbo
17 Jun 2017, 04:48 PM
Fitting a system like this to a high rise was sheer madness but is perfectly within the building codes.

Tha bit about it "is perfectly within the building codes" (which pretty much implies that ya can expect it ta have bin done A LOT) really woz me singular biggest worry Jimbo.

Almost a case of "Uh, Houston, we've had a problem" maybes? :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston,_we_have_a_problem

Wif some logical follow up questions (ta me) bein' stuff like:

"Hmmm, wot's we gunna do ta fix it?"

'N ...

"Wot's tha implications of tha fact we's just pretty much gunna have ta do 'em?"

'N ...

"For whom in particular?"
Edited by herbie, 17 Jun 2017, 09:18 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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Rufus
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A newspaper report on the origins of the fire.


Posted Image
Attached to this post:
Attachments: Fire.jpg (64.49 KB)
Edited by Rufus, 17 Jun 2017, 08:25 PM.
Take risks - if you win you will become wealthy, if you lose you will become wise
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Jimbo
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herbie
17 Jun 2017, 07:54 PM

Tha bit about it "is perfectly within the building codes" (which pretty much implies that ya can expect it ta have bin done A LOT) really woz me singular biggest worry Jimbo.

Almost a case of "Uh, Houston, we've had a problem" maybes? :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston,_we_have_a_problem

Wif some logical follow up questions (ta me) bein' stuff like:

"Hmmm, wot's we gunna do ta fix it?"

'N ...

"Wot's tha implications of tha fact we's just pretty much gunna have ta do 'em?"

'N ...

"For whom in particular?"
The focus of the press has been on the cladding panels but even if they had used fibre cement panels, the insulation would still have gone up.

PIR insulation in itself is a very good material. You'd need more than double the thickness of rockwool to get the same level of performance.

PIR also doesn't catch alight that easily. It needs a good deal of concentrated flame on the core material to reach ignition temperature.

Sadly, the system used provided exactly that. A small flat fire penerated through the window and instead of licking up against non flammable concrete, it was sucked up the ventilation gap behind the cladding panels and concentrated directly onto the exposed edge of the PIR insulation boards core material.

The chinmey effect of the air gap would have been multiplied as the temperature increased, spreading the flame rapidly right to the top of the building and breaking into other flats via the PVC framed windows (which would have melted in the heat).

The building codes approve all of the materials used, state that there needs to be a cavity for ventilation and states that there must be ventilation at the base and top edge of the system as well as above and below every window.

The following instruction is pasted directly from the Marley Eternit fibre cement cladding guide.

BASE DETAIL
Normally the ends of the panels are positioned a minimum
150mm above the fiished ground level. This will help prevent
rain splash-back from the ground while maintaining suffient
space for the air to enter the cavity. No planting should be sowed
near the air inlet as over time the plants may block the air inlets.
The space between the panels and the wall must have a
perforated profie fitted. This piece allows air to enter the cavity
space while preventing the entry of birds or vermin.
Fix the
perforated profie to the wall and ensure it extends to within
5mm of the back of the panel.
Rufus
17 Jun 2017, 08:24 PM
A newspaper report on the origins of the fire.
Flat fires are very common in the UK. In a building with 120 units, you would get expect at least one of them to experience a fire in the lifetime of the building.

Because these places are made entirely of concrete, the fire would normally be dealt with by the fire brigade using one of the hydrants placed on each floor of the building.

Spread of flame though the walls, ceilings and floors is not possible in one of these types of buildings. If the fire breaks though the window, it can only lick against the solid concrete outer wall.

I've seen loads of these places in London and elsewhere with a window boarded up and scorch marks just above it where a whole flat has been burned out.

Many of the tenants in these places are some of the poorest in society. Some will live in their own filth, some will fall asleep drunk with a smoke in their hand. Fires in council flats are very common in the UK.

Sad thing is, that if this fire had happened a year ago (prior to the refurb), it wouldn't have even made the local paper. No one would have died, most of the other tenants wouldn't have even known that anything had happened at all.

So much for home improvement.

Just pasted this from the Daily Mail. Looks like they are pointing the finger at the cladding whilst ignoring the 150mm thick block of flammable insulation sitting right behind it?

Posted Image
Edited by Jimbo, 17 Jun 2017, 10:55 PM.
Matthew, 30 Jan 2016, 09:21 AM Your simplistic view is so flawed it is not worth debating. The current oversupply will be swallowed in 12 months. By the time dumb shits like you realise this prices will already be :?: rising.
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Ex BP Golly
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newjez
16 Jun 2017, 04:09 PM
Yes, owned by the council, but looks like they have outsourced it's management to a private company. It's very common in the UK to have private companies having a very close relationship with government. Tories love it, as it allows them to have 'smaller' government.
Smaller government but bigger troughs.
Posted Image



Trollie
16 Jun 2017, 08:43 PM
So you personally tested every product to ensure it was up to code and installed it yourself?

Sounds like a tale worthy of mystic jim
Pretty much dude.
Flame tested various components,checked out how "waterproof" things reacted to water.

Slump tested concrete, deformed steel beams, wind loaded danpalon and its aluminum supports etc.

Among other things is interesting and fun doing this.

I do it with most things before buying (or believing them), such as cars, bulldozers, planes etc.

I understand you being an investor and all, that you don't test things like beliefs and assumptions etc.

That's cool, I respect that man. Chinese have to sell their shit to someone if iron ore prices are going to go up.




Rufus
17 Jun 2017, 08:24 PM
A newspaper report on the origins of the fire.


Posted Image
Sounds like the daily telegraph technique of blaming the victims. The "guy had time to warn his neighbours, but packed his bags and f***ed off".

Clearly an characyter amalgam of all the bureaucrats putting in job applications to work in planning in Australia and exit England before the Inquiries gets underway.
Edited by Ex BP Golly, 18 Jun 2017, 01:45 PM.
WHAT WOULD EDDIE DO? MAAAATE!
Share a cot with Milton?
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herbie
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Ex BP Golly
18 Jun 2017, 01:24 PM
Clearly an characyter amalgam of all the bureaucrats putting in job applications to work in planning in Australia and exit England before the Inquiries gets underway.
I'll tell ya wot tho Golly, if it's bin 'good enough' for tha Brits, there's a pretty reasonable chance it's bin good enough for us too?
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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