Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]


Reply
Total global debt tops 325% of GDP as government debt jumps: IIF
Topic Started: 5 Jan 2017, 09:30 AM (4,577 Views)
Simon_S
Member Avatar


LOL......Looks like I'm everyone. The Truth, PaulK, Timo and now Tommy.

I have already destroyed your stupid accounting arguments prior.

Please tell me how all this shit matters in a Crisis again b_b?

Have you been reading any other Economists work lately?

Edited by Simon_S, 6 Jan 2017, 01:58 PM.
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Rufus
Member Avatar


Tommy
6 Jan 2017, 01:50 PM
The part where you have taken money out of circulation to pay the debt. Now there's no money in circulation!!? and you are calling this growth ??? Please explain?
It's growth in GDP but a reduction in the money supply.
Also a reduction in debt, so net change to an A&L position is zero.
Simon_S
6 Jan 2017, 01:57 PM
LOL......Looks like I'm everyone. The Truth, PaulK, Timo and now Tommy.

I have already destroyed your stupid accounting arguments prior.

Please tell me how all this shit matters in a Crisis again b_b?

Have you been reading any other Economists work lately?

It's little wonder that we keep confusing you with the stupidest posters we have ever seen.
It's a natural error. Please don't be offended. In fact many of them were quite a bit smarter than you, so it's a compliment of sorts.
Edited by Rufus, 6 Jan 2017, 02:05 PM.
Take risks - if you win you will become wealthy, if you lose you will become wise
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Tommy
Default APF Avatar


Simon_S
6 Jan 2017, 01:57 PM
LOL......Looks like I'm everyone. The Truth, PaulK, Timo and now Tommy.

I have already destroyed your stupid accounting arguments prior.

Please tell me how all this shit matters in a Crisis again b_b?

Have you been reading any other Economists work lately?

The scenario that b b explains how an economic collapse occurs and labels it growth. Let me see what happens when you take all money in circulation and use it to pay off debts hmmm. So that's growth and I'm simon!
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Rufus
Member Avatar


Tommy
6 Jan 2017, 02:08 PM
The scenario that b b explains how an economic collapse occurs and labels it growth. Let me see what happens when you take all money in circulation and use it to pay off debts hmmm. So that's growth and I'm simon!
I think you will find b_b was talking about replacing private sector debt with public sector debt, so not all of the money will be taken out of the monetary system, if any at all.
Take risks - if you win you will become wealthy, if you lose you will become wise
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Tommy
Default APF Avatar


Rufus
6 Jan 2017, 02:02 PM
It's growth in GDP but a reduction in the money supply.
Also a reduction in debt, so net change to an A&L position is zero.

It's little wonder that we keep confusing you with the stupidest posters we have ever seen.
It's a natural error. Please don't be offended. In fact many of them were quite a bit smarter than you, so it's a compliment of sorts.
One of the stupidest posters ever? Wow now we're getting down to it ! Your defiantly the bigger person here! I think I may have just seen the stupid post so far. And your thoughts that gdp grew, your right but only for a moment. Sorry but we don't measure gdp per moment.
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Sydneyite
Member Avatar


Rufus
6 Jan 2017, 02:02 PM
It's growth in GDP but a reduction in the money supply.
Correct.

Tommy - you seem to be working under the incorrect assumption that growth in GDP (whether for a country or the globally), requires an expansion of the broad money supply. As b_b has shown quite simply, this does not have to be the case.

GDP is a "flow" measure - it counts the total value of all goods and services exchanged over some period of time. GDP growth is the result where this total exchange increases from one period to the next. The money supply is a "stock" measure - ie what's the total amount of broad money in existence at some point in time. Likewise the aggregate amount of debt outstanding is also a stock measure. It is quite possible (and logical) that money is used to purchase some good or service (resulting in a GDP contribution), maybe even multiple times (resulting in multiple GDP contributions), and then get's used to pay down debt - resulting in a reduction in equal amount of both money supply and aggregate debt, while also having created more economic activity that in a previous year (period).

Now, to have INFLATION - you probably do need to be in the situation where the money supply and aggregate debt are expanding, probably faster than actual economic growth. However, inflation on its own does not equal economic growth - I think what you are thinking about is inflation rather than economic growth.

Ultimately economic growth is driven by increasing productivity (ie producing more goods/services with the same effort or resources) and/or increasing economic activity (which can include population growth) - ie simply more being "done" over a given period, even if productivity is the same. Money is simply an enabler of economic activity - an increase in the money supply on its own will not help you grow an economy - ideally the money supply only expands in response to the *need* to due to actual economic growth that is occurring.

So the world economy will only ultimately stop growing if a) humans stop innovating and figuring ways to be more productive, and b) human population growth ceases and c) we run out of required resources - although that ultimately really relates to a).
Edited by Sydneyite, 6 Jan 2017, 03:54 PM.
For Aussie property bears, "denial", is not just a long river in North Africa.....
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Tommy
Default APF Avatar


Rufus
6 Jan 2017, 02:11 PM
I think you will find b_b was talking about replacing private sector debt with public sector debt, so not all of the money will be taken out of the monetary system, if any at all.
I have repeatedly stated total global debt to bb and that's bb reply.
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Rufus
Member Avatar


Tommy
6 Jan 2017, 02:20 PM
One of the stupidest posters ever? Wow now we're getting down to it ! Your defiantly the bigger person here! I think I may have just seen the stupid post so far. And your thoughts that gdp grew, your right but only for a moment. Sorry but we don't measure gdp per moment.
Well thanks for clearing up any possible misunderstanding I may have had of your capacity for thought and reason.

Cheers
Take risks - if you win you will become wealthy, if you lose you will become wise
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Tommy
Default APF Avatar


Sydneyite
6 Jan 2017, 02:22 PM
Correct.

Tommy - you seem to be working under the incorrect assumption that growth in GDP (whether for a country or the globally), requires an expansion of the broad money supply. As b_b has shown quite simply, this does not have to be the case.

GDP is a "flow" measure - it counts the total value of all goods and services exchanged over some period of time. GDP growth is the result where this total exchange increases from one period to the next. The money supply is a "stock" measure - ie what's the total amount of broad money in existence at some point in time. Likewise the aggregate amount of debt outstanding is also a stock measure. It is quite possible (and logical) that money is used to purchase some good or service (resulting in a GDP contribution), maybe even multiple times (resulting in multiple GDP contributions), and then get's used to pay down debt - resulting in a reduction in equal amount of both money supply and aggregate debt, while also having created more economic activity that in a previous year (period).

Now, to have INFLATION - you probably do need to be in the situation where the money supply and aggregate debt are expanding, probably faster than actual economic growth. However, inflation on its own does not equal economic growth - I think what you are thinking about is inflation rather than economic growth.

Ultimately economic growth is driven by increasing productivity (ie producing more value with the same effort or resources) and/or increasing economic activity (which can include population growth) - ie simply more being "done" over a given period, even if productivity is the same. Money is simply an enabler of economic activity - an increase in the money supply on its own will not help you grow an economy - ideally the money supply only expands in response to the *need* to due to actual economic growth that is occurring.

So the world economy will only ultimately stop growing if a) humans stop innovating and figuring ways to be more productive, and b) human population growth ceases and c) we run out of required resources - although that ultimately really relates to a).
From a technical standpoint yes gdp can increase while not increasingly any credit whatsoever. In reality is the economy getting bigger?
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Terry
Member Avatar


Rufus
6 Jan 2017, 02:11 PM
I think you will find b_b was talking about replacing private sector debt with public sector debt, so not all of the money will be taken out of the monetary system, if any at all.
Yes, but that's the issue with dogmatic belief systems. They don't address the reality of what debt deflation does to a h'hold or an economy. In the case of Japan, those costs are numerous and can be generally understood by the following:

-- Massive devaluation in the "price" of property and equities owned by h'holds
-- Large-scale devaluation in the property and financial assets held by banks and private companies
-- Falling consumer prices forcing companies to drastically reduce costs (primarily production and labor)
-- Changes in suburbanite behavior creating havoc with consumer spending

Within each of those 4 factors, there are many consequences, primarily restrictive (small businesses closing; falling incomes; downward spiraling costs) and some positive (development of new industries and businesses).

An over-simplified, esoteric framework that has no ability to measure impacts has little relevance to the reality.
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums with no limits on posts or members.
Learn More · Sign-up for Free
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Australian Property Forum · Next Topic »
Reply



Australian Property Forum is an economics and finance forum dedicated to discussion of Australian and global real estate markets and macroeconomics, including house prices, housing affordability, and the likelihood of a property crash. Is there an Australian housing bubble? Will house prices crash, boom or stagnate? Is the Australian property market a pyramid scheme or Ponzi scheme? Can house prices really rise forever? These are the questions we address on Australian Property Forum, the premier real estate site for property bears, bulls, investors, and speculators. Members may also discuss matters related to finance, modern monetary theory (MMT), debt deflation, cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin Ethereum and Ripple, property investing, landlords, tenants, debt consolidation, reverse home equity loans, the housing shortage, negative gearing, capital gains tax, land tax and macro prudential regulation.

Forum Rules: The main forum may be used to discuss property, politics, economics and finance, precious metals, crypto currency, debt management, generational divides, climate change, sustainability, alternative energy, environmental topics, human rights or social justice issues, and other topics on a case by case basis. Topics unsuitable for the main forum may be discussed in the lounge. You agree you won't use this forum to post material that is illegal, private, defamatory, pornographic, excessively abusive or profane, threatening, or invasive of another forum member's privacy. Don't post NSFW content. Racist or ethnic slurs and homophobic comments aren't tolerated. Accusing forum members of serious crimes is not permitted. Accusations, attacks, abuse or threats, litigious or otherwise, directed against the forum or forum administrators aren't tolerated and will result in immediate suspension of your account for a number of days depending on the severity of the attack. No spamming or advertising in the main forum. Spamming includes repeating the same message over and over again within a short period of time. Don't post ALL CAPS thread titles. The Advertising and Promotion Subforum may be used to promote your Australian property related business or service. Active members of the forum who contribute regularly to main forum discussions may also include a link to their product or service in their signature block. Members are limited to one actively posting account each. A secondary account may be used solely for the purpose of maintaining a blog as long as that account no longer posts in threads. Any member who believes another member has violated these rules may report the offending post using the report button.

Australian Property Forum complies with ASIC Regulatory Guide 162 regarding Internet Discussion Sites. Australian Property Forum is not a provider of financial advice. Australian Property Forum does not in any way endorse the views and opinions of its members, nor does it vouch for for the accuracy or authenticity of their posts. It is not permitted for any Australian Property Forum member to post in the role of a licensed financial advisor or to post as the representative of a financial advisor. It is not permitted for Australian Property Forum members to ask for or offer specific buy, sell or hold recommendations on particular stocks, as a response to a request of this nature may be considered the provision of financial advice.

Views expressed on this forum are not representative of the forum owners. The forum owners are not liable or responsible for comments posted. Information posted does not constitute financial or legal advice. The forum owners accept no liability for information posted, nor for consequences of actions taken on the basis of that information. By visiting or using this forum, members and guests agree to be bound by the Zetaboards Terms of Use.

This site may contain copyright material (i.e. attributed snippets from online news reports), the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Such content is posted to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democratic, scientific, and social justice issues. This constitutes 'fair use' of such copyright material as provided for in section 107 of US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed for research and educational purposes only. If you wish to use this material for purposes that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Such material is credited to the true owner or licensee. We will remove from the forum any such material upon the request of the owners of the copyright of said material, as we claim no credit for such material.

For more information go to Limitations on Exclusive Rights: Fair Use

Privacy Policy: Australian Property Forum uses third party advertising companies to serve ads when you visit our site. These third party advertising companies may collect and use information about your visits to Australian Property Forum as well as other web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services of interest to you. If you would like more information about this practice and to know your choices about not having this information used by these companies, click here: Google Advertising Privacy FAQ

Australian Property Forum is hosted by Zetaboards. Please refer also to the Zetaboards Privacy Policy