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One third of Australians over 60 living below poverty line: Global AgeWatch Index
Topic Started: 9 Sep 2015, 04:16 PM (5,188 Views)
ThePauk
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Herbs...
"Label housing as 'unproductive'? Dis-incentivise home ownership. Dis-incentivise saving. Incentivise consumption??? - Because consumption is somehow or other now being seen as driving productivity? (Talk about the god damn cart now somehow or other dragging the donkey :) ) - While home ownership doesn't? Jeez, view trading shares as productive - When in this country at least, the great bulk of the shares that get traded are either somehow or other tied to our own home ownership or the home ownership of people OS?
Yep, I suspect we've got some pretty full-on fruitcakes making some pretty strange sounding claims right about now as well."

Dear me Herbs, you make too many assumptions...
Sure dis-incentivise home speculation. In fact make it difficult as the Germans do. Germans still save 11.4% of their disposable income. More than Aussies!
Who said anything about making savings less attractive? You are now just making shit up and looking like an old fool.
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peter fraser
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herbie
15 Sep 2015, 09:35 AM
It just doesn't gel with me Peter.

It's one thing to hold the opinion that housing prices seem to have gotten a bit unhealthily high (with me personally being on record a while back as guesstimating they might be out of whack by 25% - Though potentially a tad more in some areas now I'd also guess? And to question the ever lower interest rates that seem to be necessary to keep it going - Which I also have), but those things in and of themselves, don't just necessarily get me all fired up to respond by totally restructuring our society.

Label housing as 'unproductive'? Dis-incentivise home ownership. Dis-incentivise saving. Incentivise consumption??? - Because consumption is somehow or other now being seen as driving productivity? (Talk about the god damn cart now somehow or other dragging the donkey :) ) - While home ownership doesn't? Jeez, view trading shares as productive - When in this country at least, the great bulk of the shares that get traded are either somehow or other tied to our own home ownership or the home ownership of people OS?

Yep, I suspect we've got some pretty full-on fruitcakes making some pretty strange sounding claims right about now as well.
I think that it depends on the national psyche to some extent. In Germany they de-incentivise home ownership by making retirees sell their homes to qualify for a state pension, and as a result only 40% of households own their own home. IE only the wealthy bother to buy homes, so it doesn't really help home ownership for the masses. Of course Germany had a large number of it's cities burnt to the ground during WW2 and that has affected they way they look at home ownership. Germany is unique in that aspect.

In this country we place a different value on owning our own home, and that attitude can't be changed overnight. All other western countries share our views, and we have similar social and economic structures, so reversing all of that just won't be possible. In fact I suspect that over time Germany will gradually become more like us as they gain more confidence in home ownership.

Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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herbie
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peter fraser
15 Sep 2015, 10:08 AM
Of course Germany had a large number of it's cities burnt to the ground during WW2 and that has affected they way they look at home ownership.
Fully expect you are correct in that Peter.

But the other point that seems to elude those with a fondness for the German housing model is that the single biggest factor in them being where they are, is that when reunification occurred, gov aggressively incentivised investor driven construction - By giving investors massive tax breaks of course - And with the inevitable oversupply resulting. With that having been a very difficult thing for them to work through given they've not had high population growth.

And just generally on Germany anyway, I do find it a bit difficult to get too excited about the prospect of rushing to emulate the supposed success of a nation that has only really been in existence as we know it for about 25 years, which has positioned itself as some sort of apparent centre of productivity in a global bloc of maybe 500 mill almost seemingly currency and otherwise legislatively entrapped consumers. Just strikes me that there's way too many very fundamental diffs between them and us that attempting to implement what they do here has no guarantee of success. (With them not exactly being any sort of long term proven success story anyway - Despite their fans seeming to be oblivious to that.)
Edited by herbie, 15 Sep 2015, 11:00 AM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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ThePauk
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peter fraser
15 Sep 2015, 10:08 AM
I think that it depends on the national psyche to some extent. In Germany they de-incentivise home ownership by making retirees sell their homes to qualify for a state pension, and as a result only 40% of households own their own home. IE only the wealthy bother to buy homes, so it doesn't really help home ownership for the masses. Of course Germany had a large number of it's cities burnt to the ground during WW2 and that has affected they way they look at home ownership. Germany is unique in that aspect.

In this country we place a different value on owning our own home, and that attitude can't be changed overnight. All other western countries share our views, and we have similar social and economic structures, so reversing all of that just won't be possible. In fact I suspect that over time Germany will gradually become more like us as they gain more confidence in home ownership.
Bullshit Peter, provide a link where Germany requires the PPOR to be sold to get a pension. I think you are making shit up.

http://euracs.eu/summaries/summary-germany/

Germany has full CGT on all property, inc the PPOR sold under ten years and very high land taxes. Hiltler saw the speculation on land as unproductive and the Germans have been such since.
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peter fraser
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herbie
15 Sep 2015, 10:21 AM
Fully expect you are correct in that Peter.

But the other point that seems elude those with a fondness for the German housing model is that the single biggest factor in them being where they are, is that when reunification occurred, gov aggressively incentivised investor driven construction - By giving investors massive tax breaks of course - And with the inevitable oversupply resulting. With that having been a very difficult thing for them to work through given they've not had high population growth.

And just generally on Germany anyway, I do find it a bit difficult to get too excited about the prospect of rushing to emulate the supposed success of a nation that has only really been in existence as we know it for about 25 years, which has positioned itself as some sort of apparent centre of productivity in a global bloc of maybe 500 mill almost seemingly currency and otherwise legislatively entrapped consumers. Just strikes me that there's way too many very fundamental diffs between them and us that attempting to implement what they do here has no guarantee of success. (With them not exactly being any sort of long term proven success story anyway - Despite their fans seeming to be oblivious to that.)
As you say having a whole continent of people needing the goods that you produce on your doorstep is a major difference and one that we can never match. Our economiy will always be different.

Driving on the autobahns and watching a never ending column of trucks carrying goods to and fro is an eye opener. We can't deliver anything to our neighbours by truck.
ThePauk
15 Sep 2015, 10:43 AM
Bullshit Peter, provide a link where Germany requires the PPOR to be sold to get a pension. I think you are making shit up.

http://euracs.eu/summaries/summary-germany/

Germany has full CGT on all property, inc the PPOR sold under ten years and very high land taxes. Hiltler saw the speculation on land as unproductive and the Germans have been such since.
I've been of the understanding that in Germany home owners had to self fund their retirement before they qualified for a state pension, which is why few own, but if you have evidence to the contrary then I would like to see it.
Edited by peter fraser, 15 Sep 2015, 11:25 AM.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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herbie
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peter fraser
15 Sep 2015, 11:15 AM
I've been of the understanding that in Germany home owners had to self fund their retirement before they qualified for a state pension, which is why few own, but if you have evidence to the contrary then I would like to see it.
Couldn't find anything on it specifically having a quick dig on the internet. (Know a German lady so could ask her I suppose - But just not THAT interested - So won't.)

But anyway, did dig this up:

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=8yvzEtutlb4C&pg=PA56&dq=germany+means+test+house&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBmoVChMI3vKr_Ob3xwIVwRqmCh3KJA5t#v=onepage&q=germany%20means%20test%20house&f=false

Couple of interesting points in it at least:

* Primarily the German retirement system is designed around ensuring you get to have a level of income that is linked to that which you attained upon retirement; So there's eff all about it that's generally 'redistributive to the poor', and

* If you ARE busted arsed and poor, any rich rellies you might be lucky enough to have get to pay to keep your no-hoping arse 'in luxury' - Rather than the tax payer generally - A bit of a family responsibility thing going down there - With the Italian system having some of the same in it I'd previously read
Edited by herbie, 15 Sep 2015, 12:18 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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ThePauk
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peter fraser
15 Sep 2015, 11:15 AM
As you say having a whole continent of people needing the goods that you produce on your doorstep is a major difference and one that we can never match. Our economiy will always be different.

Driving on the autobahns and watching a never ending column of trucks carrying goods to and fro is an eye opener. We can't deliver anything to our neighbours by truck.

I've been of the understanding that in Germany home owners had to self fund their retirement before they qualified for a state pension, which is why few own, but if you have evidence to the contrary then I would like to see it.
Your bullshit claim Peter, up to you to prove it, not me.

Your claim is 100% bullshit and goes to show how your 'assumptions' shape your ill informed views.

100% of people over 65 in Germany get a pension.

http://www.oecd.org/els/public-pensions/PAG2013-profile-Germany.pdf

"Countries such as Germany, Austria or France operate universal pension systems of a classic Bismarck design whereretirement benefits are linked to the individual earnings history of a retiree."
http://www.wiwi.uni-wuerzburg.de/fileadmin/12010500/user_upload/forschung/Papers/MeansTesting2.pdf
Edited by ThePauk, 15 Sep 2015, 12:38 PM.
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Ex BP Golly
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Trollie
14 Sep 2015, 09:30 PM
And yet you firmly believe everyone believes your own bullshit about millionaires on the pension.
So are there millionaires on the pension?
WHAT WOULD EDDIE DO? MAAAATE!
Share a cot with Milton?
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ThePauk
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Ex BP Golly
15 Sep 2015, 02:08 PM
So are there millionaires on the pension?
Yep....
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herbie
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Ex BP Golly
15 Sep 2015, 02:08 PM
So are there millionaires on the pension?
If there are, they've got to be pretty marginal millionaires I'd say.

Like who exactly who has any even half serious assets would willingly/knowingly/intentionally/actively choose to expose those finances to the prying eyes of the greedy grubby grasping small minded little gov welfare admin type grots if they didn't actually have to Golly?

Fuck 'em - I'm not even registered to vote.

The less I can have to do with them, and the less they know about me, the better - For mine.

They can stick their vote buying handouts where the sun don't shine. Leave me alone and I'll hang around and continue to be a good little vegemite and give them some of my hard earned quarterly - But don't push it fuckers ... :)
Edited by herbie, 15 Sep 2015, 02:51 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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