Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]


Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 12
About time the PPOR was included into the pension asset test
Topic Started: 18 Aug 2015, 11:38 AM (6,402 Views)
herbie
Member Avatar


ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 08:13 PM
So if I buy or build a $2.5 million PPOR to retire in, you are happy to pay me the full pension of $33,800, even if I still keep $291,500 cash to play with?
I am.

Why the fuck wouldn't I be?

Or do you reckon you've done less to deserve it than those who get it?

With plenty of them having done sweet eff all ...
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
ThePauk
Member Avatar
Diamond Member
goneaway
1 Sep 2015, 07:04 PM
So when is it predicted that the aged pension budget will begin to increase by 7% pa? By whom? And for how long? Plus when might it cease increasing by 7% pa? According to their predictions.

But I digress.

Regarding the guts of your statement that this is about ensuring 'the workers' do not have to pay increased taxes to support the aged pensioners, I suspect the youngies mightn't fall for that line.

If they have a half reasonable whack of common sense (and one in my family does; the other less so at this time) they'll see it for what it is.

Additionally I note that you felt to stick to politicking rather than choose to explore the likely long term ramifications of such a policy.

And I also note that you seem to be a pretty big fan of the German model where the home ownership rate is around 40%

PS: I think I'd personally be a bit embarrassed to be a member of one of the supposed independent think tanks/'brains trusts' of the nation if the best we can come up with to get by going forward is that we dis-incentivise home ownership in the future and all stick our sticky little fingers into the wealth that has been accumulated by the nation's current and future home owners upon their retirement. I'd have hoped for something a bit more 'wealth creation' orientated myself. Rather than 'wealth consumption' orientated.
"In 2013-14, an estimated $39.5 billion will be spent on the Age Pension, benefitting 2.4 million recipients. Expenditure on the Age Pension is currently growing at 7 per cent per year. Age Pension expenditure is expected to continue to increase largely as a result of an ageing population, increased life expectancies and benchmarking to the Male Total Average Weekly Earnings benchmark."
http://www.ncoa.gov.au/report/phase-one/part-b/7-1-age-pension.html

Posted Image
http://archive.treasury.gov.au/igr/igr2010/report/html/05_Chapter_4_Ageing_pressures_and_spending.asp

Basic numbers really. 5.4 million boomers, 80% will get the pension and 61% will get the full rate, going into the future. Only 2.5 million pensioners now.

Long term implications may be to change the thinking that residential property is the best store of wealth. That would be a positive and yes, if we had a housing markey like Germany, and capital was diverted into productive works, we will be better off. True wealth creation. The Japanese people own enough OS stocks that they investment return to the people is equal to the Japan federal budget.

I am not a member of any 'think tank' or political party.
Strindberg
1 Sep 2015, 07:30 PM
It seems odd to me that pauk should think that someone who has failed to provide for their own accommodation in their post work years (and spent none of their lifetime earnings to provide such accommodation) is more deserving of a government pension than someone who devoted much of their own lifetime earnings to accommodation for their post work years.
Liberal thinking is that you do provide for yourself. Those that have not, fall into the welfare safety net.

Stringy, a cap, old man, a cap, not all the asset value....

A VG of $750k would mean that, a cap.... In short it is saying that if you own a $2million property and the VG is $1m, then $250k will be added to your assesable assets.
If you only had $1, then nothing would change and the people would still get the FULL PENSION!



goneaway
1 Sep 2015, 08:25 PM
I am.

Why the fuck wouldn't I be?

Or do you reckon you've done less to deserve it than those who get it?

With plenty of them having done sweet eff all ...
You get my point however?

If I keep $2.5 million in cash, I get zero pension. Shite, even if I keep $1million in cash and build a $1.5 million PPOR, I still get zero pension.

The incentive is to buy a big house. I then get the full pension...you getting it yet?

Do I deserve to get the $33,800 per year, or perhaps $500k in total, just because I spent all my $2.5 million on a very big PPOR?
Do I deserve to get zero per year, or zero in total, because I built a $1.5m home and kept $1million in cash?
Do I deserve to get zero per year, or zero in total, because I kept the $2.5million in cash?

Oh, dear me....
Edited by ThePauk, 1 Sep 2015, 08:41 PM.
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
herbie
Member Avatar


ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 08:29 PM
"In 2013-14, an estimated $39.5 billion will be spent on the Age Pension, benefitting 2.4 million recipients. Expenditure on the Age Pension is currently growing at 7 per cent per year. Age Pension expenditure is expected to continue to increase largely as a result of an ageing population, increased life expectancies and benchmarking to the Male Total Average Weekly Earnings benchmark."
http://www.ncoa.gov.au/report/phase-one/part-b/7-1-age-pension.html

Posted Image
http://archive.treasury.gov.au/igr/igr2010/report/html/05_Chapter_4_Ageing_pressures_and_spending.asp

Basic numbers really. 5.4 million boomers, 80% will get the pension and 61% will get the full rate, going into the future. Only 2.5 million pensioners now.

Long term implications may be to change the thinking that residential property is the best store of wealth. That would be a positive and yes, if we had a housing markey like Germany, and capital was diverted into productive works, we will be better off. True wealth creation. The Japanese people own enough OS stocks that they investment return to the people is equal to the Japan federal budget.

I am not a member of any 'think tank' or political party.
Paul if you were in Japan, you'd just be supporting and peddling proposals to get your fingers into the Japanese people's OS stock holdings.

Whilst justifying doing so by saying stuff like Holding such excessive foreign investments is NOT in the national interest. Or whatever.

Boomers? In Oz? Who mentioned them? And more specifically why? Given there aren't that many of them by birth year - Not comparatively anyway.


Edited by herbie, 1 Sep 2015, 08:49 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
ThePauk
Member Avatar
Diamond Member
goneaway
1 Sep 2015, 08:47 PM
Paul if you were in Japan, you'd just be supporting and peddling proposals to get your fingers into the Japanese people's OS stock holdings.

Whilst justifying doing so by saying stuff like Holding such excessive foreign investments is NOT in the national interest. Or whatever.

Boomers? In Oz? Who mentioned them? And more specifically why? Given there aren't that many of them by birth year - Not comparatively anyway.

Not that many boomers?

Ok, I give up.
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
herbie
Member Avatar


ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 08:29 PM
"In 2013-14, an estimated $39.5 billion will be spent on the Age Pension, benefitting 2.4 million recipients. Expenditure on the Age Pension is currently growing at 7 per cent per year. Age Pension expenditure is expected to continue to increase largely as a result of an ageing population, increased life expectancies and benchmarking to the Male Total Average Weekly Earnings benchmark."
http://www.ncoa.gov.au/report/phase-one/part-b/7-1-age-pension.html

Posted Image
http://archive.treasury.gov.au/igr/igr2010/report/html/05_Chapter_4_Ageing_pressures_and_spending.asp

Basic numbers really. 5.4 million boomers, 80% will get the pension and 61% will get the full rate, going into the future. Only 2.5 million pensioners now.

Long term implications may be to change the thinking that residential property is the best store of wealth. That would be a positive and yes, if we had a housing markey like Germany, and capital was diverted into productive works, we will be better off. True wealth creation. The Japanese people own enough OS stocks that they investment return to the people is equal to the Japan federal budget.

I am not a member of any 'think tank' or political party.

Liberal thinking is that you do provide for yourself. Those that have not, fall into the welfare safety net.

Stringy, a cap, old man, a cap, not all the asset value....

A VG of $750k would mean that, a cap.... In short it is saying that if you own a $2million property and the VG is $1m, then $250k will be added to your assesable assets.
If you only had $1, then nothing would change and the people would still get the FULL PENSION!




You get my point however?

If I keep $2.5 million in cash, I get zero pension. Shite, even if I keep $1million in cash and build a $1.5 million PPOR, I still get zero pension.

The incentive is to buy a big house. I then get the full pension...you getting it yet?

Do I deserve to get the $33,800 per year, or perhaps $500k in total, just because I spent all my $2.5 million on a very big PPOR?
Do I deserve to get zero per year, or zero in total, because I built a $1.5m home and kept $1million in cash?
Do I deserve to get zero per year, or zero in total, because I kept the $2.5million in cash?

Oh, dear me....
James Packer deserves to get the aged pension.

As does Gina Rinehart.

And ThePauk.

ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 08:56 PM
Not that many boomers?

Ok, I give up.
By birth year as stated. Open your eyes and look:

http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/d3310114.nsf/home/Population%20Pyramid%20-%20Australia

Instead of continuing to go blah, blah, blah, crap, crap, crap.

Talk about empty vessels making the most noise ... Or vested interests/lobbyists.
Edited by herbie, 1 Sep 2015, 09:00 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
herbie
Member Avatar


ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 08:29 PM
Long term implications may be to change the thinking that residential property is the best store of wealth. That would be a positive and yes, if we had a housing markey like Germany, and capital was diverted into productive works, we will be better off. True wealth creation.
Probably none of my damn business how the young people of Australia choose to restructure their society, as I'll be dead.

But I'd least be suggesting they have a very good long hard think about things before they choose to actively pursue a structure in which 60% are tenants because they've been told it works for Germany and is 'productive'.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
ThePauk
Member Avatar
Diamond Member
The Actuaries Institute’s recommendations to improve the retirement system include:

Including one’s principal place of residence in the assets test for the Aged Pension;
Reducing superannuation concessions, including by placing a $2.5 million lifetime cap on the amount of super one can contribute and receive tax concessions;
Raising the superannuation guarantee (compulsory super) progressively from 9.5% currently to 12%;
Providing incentives for retirees to take retirement benefits predominantly as an income stream;
Removing legislative barriers preventing innovation in products, such as deferred annuities;
Increasing the retirement age and linking it to longevity trends; and
Taxing bequests.

https://www.actuaries.asn.au/Library/Opinion/2015/ForRicherForPoorerRetirementIncomes2WEB.pdf
and a previous paper (AgeQuake) - https://www.actuaries.asn.au/Library/Submissions/Opinion/2012/AI-WP-Longevity-WEB050912.pdf

http://www.themercury.com.au/actuaries-institute-joins-retirement-debate/story-fnj3twbb-1227508065717
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/09/actuaries-retirement-system-unsustainable/


Ok, now I need to ponder as the 'market value' can be generally 1, 2 or 3 times the VG amount. Mmmmm...
Ok, an automated system should be able to do the 'market valuations' adequately....
So perhaps a MV of $1.5 million as the cap.
Edited by ThePauk, 2 Sep 2015, 11:20 AM.
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
peter fraser
Member Avatar


ThePauk
2 Sep 2015, 11:09 AM
The Actuaries Institute’s recommendations to improve the retirement system include:

Including one’s principal place of residence in the assets test for the Aged Pension;
Reducing superannuation concessions, including by placing a $2.5 million lifetime cap on the amount of super one can contribute and receive tax concessions;
Raising the superannuation guarantee (compulsory super) progressively from 9.5% currently to 12%;
Providing incentives for retirees to take retirement benefits predominantly as an income stream;
Removing legislative barriers preventing innovation in products, such as deferred annuities;
Increasing the retirement age and linking it to longevity trends; and
Taxing bequests.


Breaking news actuaries lobby for more work and thus more income for actuaries.


Quote:
 
Ok, now I need to ponder as the 'market value' can be generally 1, 2 or 3 times the VG amount. Mmmmm...
Ok, an automated system should be able to do the 'market valuations' adequately....
So perhaps a MV of $1.5 million as the cap.

Centrelink have their own valuers which they use to determine property values for assets tests, and they have their own valuation methodology.
Your ideas are hopelessly wrong on every front.

Quote:
 
Real estate values
LINK
The value of real estate fluctuates over time and it is important to keep us up to date with the current value of your real estate to ensure you get the right payment. You should tell us of any changes to your real estate including the:
•amount of any mortgage on the property
•percentage of the property that you own, including if you have sold it, and
•value of the property

We may arrange a valuation of your real estate at no cost to you. This can be different to the valuations used by state and local governments, which do not generally reflect the current market value of the property and buildings. We make an allowance for any loan amount you have owing on that property and we only take into account your ownership percentage. We will apply an indexation amount annually to the value of your real estate to keep the value current, and to ensure you are receiving the correct entitlement.
Edited by peter fraser, 2 Sep 2015, 11:42 PM.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
ThePauk
Member Avatar
Diamond Member
"Your ideas"...?

Not 'My ideas' as pointed out before to you Peter.

Thanks for the info on Centrelink valuation methodology. Interesting....

So yep, I am back to market value and the $1 million mark.
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Fully Featured & Customizable Free Forums
« Previous Topic · Australian Property Forum · Next Topic »
Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 12



Australian Property Forum is an economics and finance forum dedicated to discussion of Australian and global real estate markets and macroeconomics, including house prices, housing affordability, and the likelihood of a property crash. Is there an Australian housing bubble? Will house prices crash, boom or stagnate? Is the Australian property market a pyramid scheme or Ponzi scheme? Can house prices really rise forever? These are the questions we address on Australian Property Forum, the premier real estate site for property bears, bulls, investors, and speculators. Members may also discuss matters related to finance, modern monetary theory (MMT), debt deflation, cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin Ethereum and Ripple, property investing, landlords, tenants, debt consolidation, reverse home equity loans, the housing shortage, negative gearing, capital gains tax, land tax and macro prudential regulation.

Forum Rules: The main forum may be used to discuss property, politics, economics and finance, precious metals, crypto currency, debt management, generational divides, climate change, sustainability, alternative energy, environmental topics, human rights or social justice issues, and other topics on a case by case basis. Topics unsuitable for the main forum may be discussed in the lounge. You agree you won't use this forum to post material that is illegal, private, defamatory, pornographic, excessively abusive or profane, threatening, or invasive of another forum member's privacy. Don't post NSFW content. Racist or ethnic slurs and homophobic comments aren't tolerated. Accusing forum members of serious crimes is not permitted. Accusations, attacks, abuse or threats, litigious or otherwise, directed against the forum or forum administrators aren't tolerated and will result in immediate suspension of your account for a number of days depending on the severity of the attack. No spamming or advertising in the main forum. Spamming includes repeating the same message over and over again within a short period of time. Don't post ALL CAPS thread titles. The Advertising and Promotion Subforum may be used to promote your Australian property related business or service. Active members of the forum who contribute regularly to main forum discussions may also include a link to their product or service in their signature block. Members are limited to one actively posting account each. A secondary account may be used solely for the purpose of maintaining a blog as long as that account no longer posts in threads. Any member who believes another member has violated these rules may report the offending post using the report button.

Australian Property Forum complies with ASIC Regulatory Guide 162 regarding Internet Discussion Sites. Australian Property Forum is not a provider of financial advice. Australian Property Forum does not in any way endorse the views and opinions of its members, nor does it vouch for for the accuracy or authenticity of their posts. It is not permitted for any Australian Property Forum member to post in the role of a licensed financial advisor or to post as the representative of a financial advisor. It is not permitted for Australian Property Forum members to ask for or offer specific buy, sell or hold recommendations on particular stocks, as a response to a request of this nature may be considered the provision of financial advice.

Views expressed on this forum are not representative of the forum owners. The forum owners are not liable or responsible for comments posted. Information posted does not constitute financial or legal advice. The forum owners accept no liability for information posted, nor for consequences of actions taken on the basis of that information. By visiting or using this forum, members and guests agree to be bound by the Zetaboards Terms of Use.

This site may contain copyright material (i.e. attributed snippets from online news reports), the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Such content is posted to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democratic, scientific, and social justice issues. This constitutes 'fair use' of such copyright material as provided for in section 107 of US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed for research and educational purposes only. If you wish to use this material for purposes that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Such material is credited to the true owner or licensee. We will remove from the forum any such material upon the request of the owners of the copyright of said material, as we claim no credit for such material.

For more information go to Limitations on Exclusive Rights: Fair Use

Privacy Policy: Australian Property Forum uses third party advertising companies to serve ads when you visit our site. These third party advertising companies may collect and use information about your visits to Australian Property Forum as well as other web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services of interest to you. If you would like more information about this practice and to know your choices about not having this information used by these companies, click here: Google Advertising Privacy FAQ

Australian Property Forum is hosted by Zetaboards. Please refer also to the Zetaboards Privacy Policy