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About time the PPOR was included into the pension asset test
Topic Started: 18 Aug 2015, 11:38 AM (6,405 Views)
peter fraser
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zaph
1 Sep 2015, 10:25 AM
You never consider the political realities of your manifesto. Neither party is interested in this policy as they know it's a dead set election loser.
Yep it's a sure fire election loser.

Pauk would have more luck promoting a toad throwing competition.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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ThePauk
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zaph
1 Sep 2015, 10:25 AM
You never consider the political realities of your manifesto. Neither party is interested in this policy as they know it's a dead set election loser.
Where did I say that it would be easy politically?

My guess is that it will be a cap at a high level first and creep down with time.

The politics will be easy to sell if the language is that someone living in a home with a VG of $1 million (VG $750k cap) will have their pension reduced by x dollars due to $250K being included in their assets for the asset test.. It will not stop a pension, but it will reduce it.

Same language will be used that was used to adjust the taper rate. "Should we be paying someone with a million dollar home, welfare?"

So Peter, is someone (pensioner) with a $1 million home and $1 in cash only worth $1?
Edited by ThePauk, 1 Sep 2015, 11:17 AM.
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Trollie
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ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 11:12 AM


So Peter, is someone (pensioner) with a $1 million home and $1 in cash only worth $1?
So as someone with a trust arrangement to hide your assets Pauk, should we be paying you a pension?
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Strindberg
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ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 11:12 AM
Same language will be used that was used to adjust the taper rate. "Should we be paying someone with a million dollar home, welfare?"
That question could be applied to all recipients of welfare.

Pauk, are you wishing to only reduce welfare to old people who own houses?

How about non-pensioner home owners who receive extensive family tax benefits, medicare benefits, carer payments, childcare payments, child dental benefits, free education, continence aid benefit, Newstart Allowance etc?

Discrimination on the basis of age is illegal in each of the states and territories of Australia. At the national level, Australia is party to a number of international treaties and conventions that impose obligations to eliminate age discrimination.
Housing costs to Income broadly unchanged since 1994 - re-ratified here
The People of Australia have the highest median wealth in the World
2002-2012 10 year house price growth the SLOWEST since 1952-1962
"There are two kinds of people in this world: ones that fiddle around wondering whether a thing's right or wrong and guys like us." (Hugo to Gagin in Ride the Pink Horse)
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zaph
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ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 11:12 AM



Same language will be used that was used to adjust the taper rate.
Quote:
 
Where did I say that it would be easy politically?


I don't recall you saying so; but one needs to consider politics - you never seem to. It's impossible for a long period of time.

Quote:
 
My guess is that it will be a cap at a high level first and creep down with time.


That was my idea! I expect an advisor appointment when you become an MP. Please book the chopper for 7.30. I'll have contemporary Thai on the actual flight.

Quote:
 
The politics will be easy to sell if the language is that someone living in a home with a VG of $1 million (VG $750k cap) will have their pension reduced by x dollars due to $250K being included in their assets for the asset test.. It will not stop a pension, but it will reduce it.


Nowhere near high enough not to scare the voters into panic! Not easy at all.

Quote:
 
"Should we be paying someone with a million dollar home, welfare?"


For the fourth time, yes.
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ThePauk
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Trollie
1 Sep 2015, 11:23 AM
So as someone with a trust arrangement to hide your assets Pauk, should we be paying you a pension?
Assets do not get 'hidden' and in fact the Trust has two CGT events and income is declared for any welfare.

Not sure where you got your information from regarding this, but you are wrong.

"What are the Attribution Rules?
The attribution rules were introduced from 1 January 2002 and became effective from 30 April 2002. Their purpose was to assess interests in family trusts, testamentary trusts and private companies under both the Income and Assets Tests. "
http://www.adviservoice.com.au/2010/11/family-trusts-private-companies-and-centrelink-%E2%80%93-how-do-the-attribution-rules-affect-your-retiring-clients/

http://www.sfsonline.com.au/clientservices/centrelinkdvapensions/agepension.asp#deeming

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/deeming

http://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/4/3/1/20
Strindberg
1 Sep 2015, 11:34 AM
That question could be applied to all recipients of welfare.

Pauk, are you wishing to only reduce welfare to old people who own houses?

How about non-pensioner home owners who receive extensive family tax benefits, medicare benefits, carer payments, childcare payments, child dental benefits, free education, continence aid benefit, Newstart Allowance etc?

Discrimination on the basis of age is illegal in each of the states and territories of Australia. At the national level, Australia is party to a number of international treaties and conventions that impose obligations to eliminate age discrimination.
Berg
All welfare, not just pensioners, of course....
Edited by ThePauk, 1 Sep 2015, 11:49 AM.
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herbie
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If open, informed and honest discussion on it were desired then the first and most major point to be making is that adopting such a policy will almost certainly change the fundamental structure of our society.

Home ownership will be dis-incentivised. Renting will be incentivised.

The core strategy for wealth accumulation used by the middle class - Specifically paying down a home loan over time - Will be dis-incentivised.

And for what purpose?

Well, primarily to force the wealth that the middle class have accumulated in their homes to be spent supporting an increasingly consumption and services orientated economy. Is the single most overall honest answer I'd say. Once the politicking is stripped out.

And just what are the long term ramifications of all this likely to be, would seem to be a fairly obvious next question.

Edited by herbie, 1 Sep 2015, 12:02 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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Strindberg
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ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 11:43 AM
Berg
All welfare, not just pensioners, of course....
I see. You expect some political party to go into a Federal election with a policy which removes family tax benefits, free education, childcare, medicare benefits, Newstart unemployment benefit, etc for all people of all ages who own a home with a VG value over $750k.

Do you think such a party will get elected by people who will be expected to sell their house if they require a hospital operation?
Housing costs to Income broadly unchanged since 1994 - re-ratified here
The People of Australia have the highest median wealth in the World
2002-2012 10 year house price growth the SLOWEST since 1952-1962
"There are two kinds of people in this world: ones that fiddle around wondering whether a thing's right or wrong and guys like us." (Hugo to Gagin in Ride the Pink Horse)
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ThePauk
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goneaway
1 Sep 2015, 11:59 AM
Home ownership will be dis-incentivised. Renting will be incentivised.


And now we have the opposite where people are not downsizing and houses remain protected from the asset test and a way to 'protect' your pension welfare.

goneaway
1 Sep 2015, 11:59 AM
The core strategy for wealth accumulation used by the middle class - Specifically paying down a home loan over time - Will be dis-incentivised.


Why would it? If you acquire wealth then you should expect to use it to support yourself and not use welfare to protect the 'inheritances'

goneaway
1 Sep 2015, 11:59 AM
Well, primarily to force the wealth that the middle class have accumulated in their homes to be spent supporting a consumption and services orientated economy. Is the single most overall honest answer I'd say. Once the politicking is stripped out.


The main objective is to not have to increase tax on workers to pay for a pension budget growing at 7% per year.

Strindberg
1 Sep 2015, 12:02 PM
I see. You expect some political party to go into a Federal election with a policy which removes family tax benefits, free education, childcare, medicare benefits, Newstart unemployment benefit, etc for all people of all ages who own a home with a VG value over $750k.

Do you think such a party will get elected by people who will be expected to sell their house if they require a hospital operation?
Dear me, the Pension Loan Scheme will be expanded to make it easy for reverse mortgage for all people, not just pensioners. No one would need to sell up. That is complete and utter bullshit!

A hospital operation in Australia is free under public health or free under private medical insurance. Doh!
Edited by ThePauk, 1 Sep 2015, 12:12 PM.
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peter fraser
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ThePauk
1 Sep 2015, 12:05 PM
Dear me, the Pension Loan Scheme will be expanded to make it easy for reverse mortgage for all people, not just pensioners. No one would need to sell up. That is complete and utter bullshit!

So even growing families will be expected to reverse mortgage their home so that the government doesn't have to pay them any assistance.

And as people pay a dollar off their home loan they could be self funding that dollar in Family Allowance or something like that? Is that right, and as their home rises in value they could also use that growing wealth to self fund their childrens public school education, or their neighbours disability allowance, or unemployment benefits.

That's a stroke of genius Pauk, you should be treasurer. I'll bet every government in the world adopts this progressive thinking, it's a sure fire winner with the voters.

Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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