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Hostages taken at Lindt Cafe, Martin Place. Forced to hold Islamic flag against window.
Topic Started: 15 Dec 2014, 10:25 AM (28,390 Views)
Leodwald of Portsburgh
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A Lurker
27 Dec 2014, 10:50 PM
Ok so you don't like the linked report. Fair enough. Cutting through it. It is fact that on the whole, immigrants to Australia and their children have a higher workforce participation rate, higher median earnings and better wage growth than the Australain born group. The linked report points this out and there are many other references to this on the web. It is irrefutable.

Accordingly, these immigrants contribute more to taxes and reduce the burden of all tax payers. They effectively are paying more than 'their' share of welfare, pensions and govt services. This benefits all Australians. immigrants have built some of Australia's biggest companies (and biggest employers) and many CEOs of Australia's leading companies are immigrants.

Leaders of innovation and technology companies welcome diversity of backgrounds in their leadership groups as it is demonstrable that this diversity leads to greater corporate success and profits. There is also plenty of references to this concept throughout the web.

On your immigrants vs multicultural point, I'm assuming you just want to choose immigrants that should be allowed to come here that fit within your value set. There is a word for that. Having said that, the government does this as well. People from certain countries get special treatment, also certain professions, ages and other criteria. This is a form of discrimination that the government has decided is acceptable.

The concept of multiculturalism is really just a positioning selling point to (attempt) to encourage the best immigrants to come here - you can come here and be welcomed and keep your traditions (subject to certain caveats). In reality it's mostly BS as once here the overwhelming majority live the same as everyone else regardless of when you or your antecedents stepped off the boat or plane. House in the suburbs, work 9-5, buy crap from Kmart down the local Westfield, mow the lawns on Saturday and may or may not go the local place of worship on Sunday (usually not). They have to abide by Australian laws, speed limits and manners, particularly if they want to succeed, which most do.

Multiculturalism is not some evil it's just marketing.

There are dishonest, violent and mentally disturbed people of every race, religion, stripe and football team fans in Australia. The press just like an angle when they report on their deeds. The uneducated public lap it up as it fits their neat stereotypes. The OP is a perfect example and the police even bought into it in this situation. Once they knew who this was (which they would have done in the first hour), ie, a serial pest, sexual offender, murder suspect and publicity hound, the police should have been straight though the door and shot him. It would have lead the news that night but all of this locking down half the CBD and the US and UK waking up to terrorist siege BS could have been avoided. That's what I would have told them if they called me but unfortunately they don't.

Quote:
 
Ok so you don't like the linked report. Fair enough. Cutting through it. It is fact that on the whole, immigrants to Australia and their children have a higher workforce participation rate, higher median earnings and better wage growth than the Australain born group. The linked report points this out and there are many other references to this on the web. It is irrefutable.


So, how does this benifit the average Australian? And you are still not talking about multiculturalism. This just means that immigrants are taking jobs and resources from Australians. What about the ethical element of poaching skilled workers from other countries, usually countries that can hardly afford to lose them, while refusing to train our own people. Businesses see this as win-win, the average Australian does not.

Here's some irrefutable facts about mass immigration and multiculturalism I found using google.
The average immigrant's standard of living increases by up to three hundred percent as a result of migration.
The above migration results in a near enough zero percent rise in living standards for natives of developed countries.
Economic growth is of no use whatever to natives unless it brings increased output per head. And there is little evidence that immigration brings this.
The Chinese and Japanese are not the slightest deprived on account of their lack of multiculturalism
Worthwhile culture travels on its own, that is without the need for migration.
Politically correct fundamentalists have been saying for years that the mixing of cultures results in their mutual "enrichment". This idea is flatly contradicted by history and by common sense.
Multiculturalism means the destruction of the Australian culture and national identity and the internationalisation of all cultures i.e. no culture
Multiculturalism is not a "fact", it is a liberalistic political ideology

Quote:
 

Accordingly, these immigrants contribute more to taxes and reduce the burden of all tax payers. They effectively are paying more than 'their' share of welfare, pensions and govt services. This benefits all Australians. immigrants have built some of Australia's biggest companies (and biggest employers) and many CEOs of Australia's leading companies are immigrants.



Well firstly this refers to immigration and not multiculturalism. And secondly, how does this benefit Australians if they are untrained and unemployed? It just means more competition for skilled jobs. Why is poaching skilled workers from other countries rather than train our own people seen as a benefit to Australians?
Quote:
 

Leaders of innovation and technology companies welcome diversity of backgrounds in their leadership groups as it is demonstrable that this diversity leads to greater corporate success and profits. There is also plenty of references to this concept throughout the web.


Blah, blah, blah. Management has it's little fads with it's little buzzwords every other month. Business is the major benificiary of population ponzi schemes and do and say anything to keep the gates open. Business interests want easy access to greater markets. They do not care about national sovereignty or borders or the environment or the welfare of existing citizens and their communities and living standards. Just look at how they love 457's and continually lobby to water down the requirements. They get a pool of people desperate for work. They get cheap compliant workers. Win-win.

Quote:
 

On your immigrants vs multicultural point, I'm assuming you just want to choose immigrants that should be allowed to come here that fit within your value set. There is a word for that. Having said that, the government does this as well. People from certain countries get special treatment, also certain professions, ages and other criteria. This is a form of discrimination that the government has decided is acceptable.


I want a moderate immigration program and only immigrants willing to integrate and become part of this nation. This rest is just libtard insinuation. Let's PC ourselves out of F existence. "I'm so non-racist i'll give away my country to prove it". Do you think your children and grandchildren are going to thank you for this? Do you think the immigrants will thank you for this? Shit, even the immigrants think you're a living F joke.


Quote:
 
The concept of multiculturalism is really just a positioning selling point to (attempt) to encourage the best immigrants to come here - you can come here and be welcomed and keep your traditions (subject to certain caveats). In reality it's mostly BS as once here the overwhelming majority live the same as everyone else regardless of when you or your antecedents stepped off the boat or plane. House in the suburbs, work 9-5, buy crap from Kmart down the local Westfield, mow the lawns on Saturday and may or may not go the local place of worship on Sunday (usually not). They have to abide by Australian laws, speed limits and manners, particularly if they want to succeed, which most do.

Multiculturalism is not some evil it's just marketing.


So you got nothing to recommend multiculturalism except to tell me it isn't real. It's just a joke that I don't get. It's all just in my imagination. I'm just imagining the ethnic enclaves, the increasing Asianisation of Australia and the disappearing Australian culture and the loss of national identity. Government is just dumping billions on multicultural initiatives each year and curbing their citizens rights (18c) in a subterfuge to lure immigrants here. A country that can't afford to build decent infrastructure for the people already here should not be spending billions on initiatives to lure even more people here.

If you really believe this you know nothing about political Islam or other minorities political aims and you lack even the most basic comprehension of history or self preservation.
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A Lurker
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Leodwald of Portsburgh
29 Dec 2014, 11:22 PM

Here's some irrefutable facts about mass immigration and multiculturalism I found using google.
The average immigrant's standard of living increases by up to three hundred percent as a result of migration.
The above migration results in a near enough zero percent rise in living standards for natives of developed countries.
Economic growth is of no use whatever to natives unless it brings increased output per head. And there is little evidence that immigration brings this.
The Chinese and Japanese are not the slightest deprived on account of their lack of multiculturalism
Worthwhile culture travels on its own, that is without the need for migration.
Politically correct fundamentalists have been saying for years that the mixing of cultures results in their mutual "enrichment". This idea is flatly contradicted by history and by common sense.
Multiculturalism means the destruction of the Australian culture and national identity and the internationalisation of all cultures i.e. no culture
Multiculturalism is not a "fact", it is a liberalistic political ideology
The benefits to unemployed or low skilled Australian born is that the immigranrs and their children pay taxes and drive spending on infrastructure that supports those unemployed and low skilled Australian born.

How does a few 'supposed' enclaves and seeing more non-White faces down the mall lead to the destruction of Austrlaian culture and national identity for the average Australian? I really think that is a big stretch. People still get their bronze medalion, go along to nippers, play footy (whichever flavour your suburb is into), head to the RSL for a fisherman's basket, mow the lawn on Saturday, fire up the BBQ, head into the bush in the landcruiser, go down the chippy on a Friday night etc. What precisely is destroyed? - and please no hand waving.

Leodwald of Portsburgh
29 Dec 2014, 11:22 PM




Blah, blah, blah. Management has it's little fads with it's little buzzwords every other month. Business is the major benificiary of population ponzi schemes and do and say anything to keep the gates open. Business interests want easy access to greater markets. They do not care about national sovereignty or borders or the environment or the welfare of existing citizens and their communities and living standards. Just look at how they love 457's and continually lobby to water down the requirements. They get a pool of people desperate for work. They get cheap compliant workers. Win-win.



Business is what drives job and wealth creation. People should listen to business more. Businesses down like 457s. They are a pain to administer. They would rather their be Australian's with the same skills. They are used to plug a shortage. If schools, universities and parents encouraged the young to do vocational courses that are in demand that would be a good idea. Having said that, there is a long lead time for training and it's pretty hard to predict precisely the numbers and skills that will be in demand in 5 or so years. If only we had some way of bringing in skilled people to fill a gap from overseas on a short term basis where business confirmed they had a need for them (oh, hang on).
Leodwald of Portsburgh
29 Dec 2014, 11:22 PM

So you got nothing to recommend multiculturalism except to tell me it isn't real. It's just a joke that I don't get. It's all just in my imagination. I'm just imagining the ethnic enclaves, the increasing Asianisation of Australia and the disappearing Australian culture and the loss of national identity. Government is just dumping billions on multicultural initiatives each year and curbing their citizens rights (18c) in a subterfuge to lure immigrants here. A country that can't afford to build decent infrastructure for the people already here should not be spending billions on initiatives to lure even more people here.

If you really believe this you know nothing about political Islam or other minorities political aims and you lack even the most basic comprehension of history or self preservation.
Firstly I don't believe government spends billions on multicultue initiatives.

Secondly, as requested above please online the elements of Austrlaian culture and national identity that have disappeared.

I'm on your side about 18C so let's not argue that one.

I do not believe that there is any serious Islamic or other ethnic plan to seek political power in Australia. For the record I'd like to see church and State separation expanded further for all religions. Religion should keep out of politics and politicians should not pander to any religious group.
Edited by A Lurker, 30 Dec 2014, 07:59 AM.
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peter fraser
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A Lurker
30 Dec 2014, 07:38 AM
The benefits to unemployed or low skilled Australian born is that the immigranrs and their children pay taxes and drive spending on infrastructure that supports those unemployed and low skilled Australian born.

How does a few 'supposed' enclaves and seeing more non-White faces down the mall lead to the destruction of Austrlaian culture and national identity for the average Australian? I really think that is a big stretch. People still get their bronze medalion, go along to nippers, play footy (whichever flavour your suburb is into), head to the RSL for a fisherman's basket, mow the lawn on Saturday, fire up the BBQ, head into the bush in the landcruiser, go down the chippy on a Friday night etc. What precisely is destroyed? - and please no hand waving.


Business is what drives job and wealth creation. People should listen to business more. Businesses down like 457s. They are a pain to administer. They would rather their be Australian's with the same skills. They are used to plug a shortage. If schools, universities and parents encouraged the young to do vocational courses that are in demand that would be a good idea. Having said that, there is a long lead time for training and it's pretty hard to predict precisely the numbers and skills that will be in demand in 5 or so years. If only we had some way of bringing in skilled people to fill a gap from overseas on a short term basis where business confirmed they had a need for them (oh, hang on).

Firstly I don't believe government spends billions on multicultue initiatives.

Secondly, as requested above please online the elements of Austrlaian culture and national identity that have disappeared.

I'm on your side about 18C so let's not argue that one.

I do not believe that there is any serious Islamic or other ethnic plan to seek political power in Australia. For the record I'd like to see church and State separation expanded further for all religions. Religion should keep out of politics and politicians should not pander to any religious group.
Leo will always post one more reply to whatever you post. That's his idea of winning an argument.

Regardless of how much logic and counter argument you post he can't change his mind. Taking onboard new ideas or information is not in his DNA.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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A Lurker
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peter fraser
30 Dec 2014, 09:12 AM
Leo will always post one more reply to whatever you post. That's his idea of winning an argument.

Regardless of how much logic and counter argument you post he can't change his mind. Taking onboard new ideas or information is not in his DNA.
Yes I've seen him in action for a while. It's still worth trying to turn him around though.

What he doesn't understand is that he is just a cliche playing out a xenophobic attitude that is over 150 years old. For some people there is always someone else to blame for perceived ills. This article and new show documents the history of race riots in Australia. race riots in Australia

As mentioned in the article - it's always a small number of people with this view, it gets lots of publicity, achieves nothing and is not supported by the majority that they always believe they represent.
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K-town
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peter fraser
30 Dec 2014, 09:12 AM
Leo will always post one more reply to whatever you post. That's his idea of winning an argument.
Spot on.
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Leodwald of Portsburgh
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A Lurker
30 Dec 2014, 07:38 AM
The benefits to unemployed or low skilled Australian born is that the immigranrs and their children pay taxes and drive spending on infrastructure that supports those unemployed and low skilled Australian born.

How does a few 'supposed' enclaves and seeing more non-White faces down the mall lead to the destruction of Austrlaian culture and national identity for the average Australian? I really think that is a big stretch. People still get their bronze medalion, go along to nippers, play footy (whichever flavour your suburb is into), head to the RSL for a fisherman's basket, mow the lawn on Saturday, fire up the BBQ, head into the bush in the landcruiser, go down the chippy on a Friday night etc. What precisely is destroyed? - and please no hand waving.


Business is what drives job and wealth creation. People should listen to business more. Businesses down like 457s. They are a pain to administer. They would rather their be Australian's with the same skills. They are used to plug a shortage. If schools, universities and parents encouraged the young to do vocational courses that are in demand that would be a good idea. Having said that, there is a long lead time for training and it's pretty hard to predict precisely the numbers and skills that will be in demand in 5 or so years. If only we had some way of bringing in skilled people to fill a gap from overseas on a short term basis where business confirmed they had a need for them (oh, hang on).

Firstly I don't believe government spends billions on multicultue initiatives.

Secondly, as requested above please online the elements of Austrlaian culture and national identity that have disappeared.

I'm on your side about 18C so let's not argue that one.

I do not believe that there is any serious Islamic or other ethnic plan to seek political power in Australia. For the record I'd like to see church and State separation expanded further for all religions. Religion should keep out of politics and politicians should not pander to any religious group.
Let's take a step back.
I said to fraser:
So at least tell me the benefits of multiculturalism using some quantifiable metric and not the usual multiculturalist fluff - 'vibrant' and 'diverse'. Tell me the benefits to the average Australian. I'm open to changing my mind if someone can show me the benefits of multiculturalism out weigh the harm it does to my fellow Australians and my country, until then I see it as displacing and replacing our lineages and ethnicity in our own land. A folly of historical proportions.

To which you responded and reposted twice thinking that you were really onto a "gotcha". When it was pointed out to you that you were talking about immigration and not multiculturalism you responded that multiculturalism wasn't real anyway. It's just an expensive government ruse to get more immigrants into a country with already groaning infrastructure. Excuse me if this kind of insipid bullshit doesn't change my mind. Failing to come up with a single benefit of multiculturalism using some quantifiable metric and to explain how it benefits the average Australian you launch into a new series of "gotcha" style questions moving even further away from my request.

You denigrate Australian culture as being about BBQ's or something displaying a very shallow, one dimensional understanding of culture and the usual leftard disdain for western culture. You have a full blown case of the cultural marxist mental illness and are obviously happy in your own sanctimony.

I really am bored with this kind of shit. Enjoy your "enrichment", enjoy your identitiless identity, enjoy your soulless culture and enjoy the demise of your own people in your own land.

http://lawandfreedomfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Easy-Meat-Multiculturalism-Islam-and-Child-Sex-Slavery-05-03-2014.pdf


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Leodwald of Portsburgh
30 Dec 2014, 06:32 PM
Let's take a step back.
I said to fraser:
So at least tell me the benefits of multiculturalism using some quantifiable metric and not the usual multiculturalist fluff - 'vibrant' and 'diverse'. Tell me the benefits to the average Australian. I'm open to changing my mind if someone can show me the benefits of multiculturalism out weigh the harm it does to my fellow Australians and my country, until then I see it as displacing and replacing our lineages and ethnicity in our own land. A folly of historical proportions.

To which you responded and reposted twice thinking that you were really onto a "gotcha". When it was pointed out to you that you were talking about immigration and not multiculturalism you responded that multiculturalism wasn't real anyway. It's just an expensive government ruse to get more immigrants into a country with already groaning infrastructure. Excuse me if this kind of insipid bullshit doesn't change my mind. Failing to come up with a single benefit of multiculturalism using some quantifiable metric and to explain how it benefits the average Australian you launch into a new series of "gotcha" style questions moving even further away from my request.

You denigrate Australian culture as being about BBQ's or something displaying a very shallow, one dimensional understanding of culture and the usual leftard disdain for western culture. You have a full blown case of the cultural marxist mental illness and are obviously happy in your own sanctimony.

I really am bored with this kind of shit. Enjoy your "enrichment", enjoy your identitiless identity, enjoy your soulless culture and enjoy the demise of your own people in your own land.

http://lawandfreedomfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Easy-Meat-Multiculturalism-Islam-and-Child-Sex-Slavery-05-03-2014.pdf

So you can't give one example of Australian culture that is threatened by multiculturalism?

And you agree that there are quantifiable benefits from immigration?

Also I don't believe all those BBQ, nippers, cricket at the G etc things are culture either but am interested in what you think culture is and which elements you believe are at risk.
Edited by A Lurker, 30 Dec 2014, 07:32 PM.
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ThePauk
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Leodwald of Portsburgh
30 Dec 2014, 06:32 PM
Let's take a step back.
I said to fraser:
So at least tell me the benefits of multiculturalism using some quantifiable metric and not the usual multiculturalist fluff - 'vibrant' and 'diverse'. Tell me the benefits to the average Australian. I'm open to changing my mind if someone can show me the benefits of multiculturalism out weigh the harm it does to my fellow Australians and my country, until then I see it as displacing and replacing our lineages and ethnicity in our own land. A folly of historical proportions.

To which you responded and reposted twice thinking that you were really onto a "gotcha". When it was pointed out to you that you were talking about immigration and not multiculturalism you responded that multiculturalism wasn't real anyway. It's just an expensive government ruse to get more immigrants into a country with already groaning infrastructure. Excuse me if this kind of insipid bullshit doesn't change my mind. Failing to come up with a single benefit of multiculturalism using some quantifiable metric and to explain how it benefits the average Australian you launch into a new series of "gotcha" style questions moving even further away from my request.

You denigrate Australian culture as being about BBQ's or something displaying a very shallow, one dimensional understanding of culture and the usual leftard disdain for western culture. You have a full blown case of the cultural marxist mental illness and are obviously happy in your own sanctimony.

I really am bored with this kind of shit. Enjoy your "enrichment", enjoy your identitiless identity, enjoy your soulless culture and enjoy the demise of your own people in your own land.

http://lawandfreedomfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Easy-Meat-Multiculturalism-Islam-and-Child-Sex-Slavery-05-03-2014.pdf

Not all are identityless including Peter Fraser.
While I have not read all your posts, I would like to see you stay.
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Ex BP Golly
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Now that questions have been raised about police operations at the Lindt Cafe, Andrew Clennell at the Daily Telegraph is doing his usual nonsense reporting

His latest story hinges on the 'fact' that an unnamed source has attributed these words to the Assistant Commissioner running the operations:
“Do not be surprised if there were no police bullets in anyone.”

Obviously the assistant commissioner would have said the opposite- do not be suprised if there are police bullets in someone.

The hamfisted mangling of the statement makes that clear .

Out of all of the many things that clearly went wrong with the operations that urgently require inquiry, this is the best the Daily Telegraphhs most senior 'journalist' can come up with-
Concern about Deputy Commissioners post siege briefing to politicians

You've got to be fucking kidding.

Murdoch pays for this shit?
Edited by Ex BP Golly, 12 Jan 2015, 09:32 AM.
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Ex BP Golly
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Sydney Morning Herald reporting is a sign that Martin Place operational failure is about to be uncovered:

Police divided over strategy during Lindt cafe siege in Martin Place, Sydney

By RICK FENELEY

Tensions have emerged among police about the command strategy during the Lindt cafe siege and a late decision that some officers believe put hostages at greater risk.

Fairfax Media has learned of the shift in strategy following the revelation that hostage Katrina Dawson was shot by a stray police bullet in the final shootout with gunman Man Haron Monis.

Police had to adopt the reactive "emergency action" after Monis fired his first shotPhoto: Daniel Munoz

On the night of December 15, many hours into the siege, senior police drew up a "direct action" plan, under which they would storm the cafe and take Monis by surprise.

Such a strategy is high-stakes and likely to result in some casualties among hostages, but the tactical operations unit and other senior police had weighed up the risks of not going in, including changes in Monis' demeanour and the prospect that he would start killing hostages if police did not act first.

There was consideration of proceeding with such a plan but, late on that Monday night, a command decision overruled that strategy.

Instead, police had to adopt the reactive "emergency action" after Monis fired his first shot, into the ceiling, at 2.03am. Monis fired as a response to the escape of six of his remaining 13 hostages.

About 2.10am, Monis executed cafe manager Tory Johnson. Police in Martin Place instantly stormed the cafe and –amid a blaze of gunfire – they killed Monis.

But it is understood that, among about 25 rounds fired by police, two ricocheted and hit 37-year-old Ms Dawson, the barrister and mother of three killed in the siege.

The NSW Police Force refused to comment, saying it is conducting an independent critical-incident investigation led by the homicide squad and "will not be drawn into speculation".

Some operational police are sensitive that any criticism of police will focus on the tragic final minutes of the hostage drama. They believe the lessons will be drawn from the 16 hours of management decisions that preceded the shooting.

Fairfax Media understands the direct action plan was ready to go several hours earlier.

A "DA" is normally a last resort, acted on only when police decide standing back will endanger more lives.

It is a balancing act, in which police must assess all the pieces of intelligence they can gather: Where are the hostages positioned in the room? Where is the hostage taker? Is he moving about? What is his state of mind and how has it changed?

After five hostages escaped on the Monday afternoon, Monis had threatened to take an "eye for an eye" and start killing people if any more dared to escape.

But police also need to build a realistic picture of what is likely to happen if and when they burst through the door. Then they must consider timing. Is there an optimal time to go in?

Despite the risks, the advantage of a direct action plan is that police seize control and decide the time rather than react in split seconds to the gunman's action.

Fairfax Media has learned there is some anger among police at the front line of the siege about the decision not to proceed with the direct action plan.

In the seven minutes that followed the 2.03am escape, police would have had time to debrief the hostages. They would have quickly separated them – to ensure one's account did not contaminate that of another – to glean the latest details from inside.

Additional linked stories here : http://m.smh.com.au/national/police-divided-over-strategy-during-lindt-cafe-siege-in-martin-place-sydney-20150111-12lykf.html
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