Ok, that was a lot of reading. I could have had the answer a lot faster if you just told me.
So, the Ukrainian people were responsible for the "coup", although they would probably call it a "revolution". And it seems most Ukrainians support the change in government.
Next question, were there actually Ukrainian fighter jets near the passenger plane and,if so, what were they doing there?
I guess I've learned my lesson so I'll just google it rather than expect to have a conversation with someone who can think for himself and express original ideas, instead of just regurgitating/posting links to bullshit.
Ok, that was a lot of reading. I could have had the answer a lot faster if you just told me.
So, the Ukrainian people were responsible for the "coup", although they would probably call it a "revolution". And it seems most Ukrainians support the change in government.
Next question, were there actually Ukrainian fighter jets near the passenger plane and,if so, what were they doing there?
I guess I've learned my lesson so I'll just google it rather than expect to have a conversation with someone who can think for himself and express original ideas, instead of just regurgitating/posting links to bullshit.
Yeah, it must have taken a lot of reading and the overlooking of a lot of facts until you found a storyline that confirmed your biases.
Quote:
rather than expect to have a conversation with someone who can think for himself and express original ideas, instead of just regurgitating/posting links to bullshit.
You mean like you who tells us what Putin is thinking and can divine his motivations and says that anyone who disagrees with your "original ideas" is a silly goon or a Russian?
I didn't regurgitate/post links to "bullshit". I posted a broad based google search with most of the articles pointing to US/EU involvement in the agitation and some very nefarious motivations for doing so but you are only interested in Uncle Ruperts version of events because it confirms your biases. I guess you believed in Iraq WMD too.
I didn't regurgitate/post links to "bullshit". I posted a broad based google search with most of the articles pointing to US/EU involvement in the agitation and some very nefarious motivations for doing so but you are only interested in Uncle Ruperts version of events because it confirms your biases. I guess you believed in Iraq WMD too.
I hope you realise your search terms have a bias. It's actually Russia who refers to the protests and ousting of what's his face as a "coup."
I don't know how to react to being accused of being biased. I have kind of alluded to three groups who might be on this thread:
Western/EU/US/Australian bias Russia bias Goons/Nutters/Anti-US/Anti-West bias (who live in the countries they hate)
I think you are a hypocrite though. That much is clear.
A revolution is “a forcible overthrow of a government or social order in favor of a new system.” A new system. Those are the key words. Even if it occurs as the result of dramatic street violence, a change in leaders doesn’t mean there has been a revolution. If the system doesn’t change much, a revolution has not taken place.
Bearing in mind what revolution means, Ukraine comes nowhere close.
Just another coup.
Just as a sidenote the posted article also has an interesting theory about why the USA would want the plebs to think this is a revolution:
Quote:
Yet American media insist on the R-word: revolution. Here we go again.
In U.S. and Western media, both the Tahrir Square “people power” demonstrations that removed Hosni Mubarak and the military coup that imprisoned the democratically elected Mohammed Morsi are called Egyptian “revolutions.”
In a real revolution, the old system — all of its most important components — are replaced.
And yeah, the definition matters. It matters a lot. Because revolution — capital-R, blood-in-the-streets, head-on-a-stick Revolution is by far the biggest threat to our system of corporate capitalism and the ruling classes who have been stealing almost every cent of the fortune we the people create with our hard work. If our business overlords convince us that revolution is something short of actually changing the system — in other words, getting rid of them — then they’re safe no matter what. Even if we protest, even if we turn violent, we will never truly emancipate ourselves.
Quote:
I have kind of alluded to three groups who might be on this thread
Western/EU/US/Australian bias Russia bias Goons/Nutters/Anti-US/Anti-West bias (who live in the countries they hate)
"kind of alluded" eh? I just read all your posts on this thread and can't even find the most oblique allusion to "three groups who might be on this thread"
Why am I the hypocrite? You are the one displaying a biased attitude and somehow think that Abbot is justified in blaming Russia for being involved in shooting down MH17 without a shred of F evidence, with no clear sequence of events and with a lot of unanswered questions about the event.
It could even yet turn out that Ukraine is totally responsible for downing MH17 but the real point is we don't know yet and neither does Abbot and he shouldn't be undiplomatically shooting his mouth off on the world stage until the facts surrounding the event are crystal clear. And BTW - what the hell happened to the black box?
Russia joining the EU is its only real option over the long term.
Russia is a declining power of less then 200 million people. It has China to its east, a new superpower in the making with 1.3 billion people. India to its south with 1.2 billion people another future superpower about 15-20 years behind China. These will be direct challenges to Russia over time and will rest control over the central Asian republics from Russia orbit as Russia will lack the economic power to keep them.
Russia in the EU would exert huge influence as it would be the EU's largest nation in terms of size and population, a reason the Germans in the past did not want them in. However that is changing due to trade issues.
Russia long term survival is at stake and its only real option along with Europe is to join together to be competitive against the other 3 large players of this century, USA, China and India.
The only other option Russia can play is to ignite a large war and go and conquer what it needs, which is most of the former Soviet Union. Even then it will still be an economic backwards state unable to compete again the other large powers. Just millions might die in the process of learning this.
When you have the largest nuke arsenal in the world numbers of people just does not count.
Those days are gone.
The introduction of modern weapons and systems has always challenged the numerical superiority position.
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, don't bring 10 knives to a gun fight.
Bioweapons could correct any numerical advantage in weeks.
Peter
Anyway why would Putin order his A.A. crews to blast a civil airliner???
It could even yet turn out that Ukraine is totally responsible for downing MH17 but the real point is we don't know yet and neither does Abbot and he shouldn't be undiplomatically shooting his mouth off on the world stage until the facts surrounding the event are crystal clear.
Yes exactly, no one is peddling hate around here and the only bias so far is that of our PM jumping to conclusions the very day after the crash, which is a complete embarrassment and makes you wonder who is pulling his chain. My MD after jumping through all of the hoops to get his Russian entry Visa on his Aussie passport, has now had to cancel his BD trip there due to our PM mouthing off. We are an exporter and he has just shut us down.
Just as a sidenote the posted article also has an interesting theory about why the USA would want the plebs to think this is a revolution:
"kind of alluded" eh? I just read all your posts on this thread and can't even find the most oblique allusion to "three groups who might be on this thread"
Why am I the hypocrite? You are the one displaying a biased attitude and somehow think that Abbot is justified in blaming Russia for being involved in shooting down MH17 without a shred of F evidence, with no clear sequence of events and with a lot of unanswered questions about the event.
It could even yet turn out that Ukraine is totally responsible for downing MH17 but the real point is we don't know yet and neither does Abbot and he shouldn't be undiplomatically shooting his mouth off on the world stage until the facts surrounding the event are crystal clear. And BTW - what the hell happened to the black box?
Why am I the hypocrite? You are the one displaying a biased attitude and somehow think that Abbot is justified in blaming Russia for being involved in shooting down MH17 without a shred of F evidence, with no clear sequence of events and with a lot of unanswered questions about the event.
Why do you choose to completely ignore the reports of troop and military vehicle movements back and forth between Russia and the separatist controlled areas? And the reports from reporters that the men with the BUK had Russian accents? And the tweets from the same men that were later deleted claiming to have shot down another Ukranian fighter jet? And the way they didn't let anybody visit the crash site for days? And how they negotiated with the Malaysian PM for days before releasing the black box.
Why do you choose to ignore all that and instead ask about changed flight paths and reports of Ukranian planes escorting the airliner?
Why don't you Google the names of the leaders of each of the separatist groups and see if they are actually Ukranians or professional Russian soldiers?
Why do you choose to completely ignore the reports of troop and military vehicle movements back and forth between Russia and the separatist controlled areas? And the reports from reporters that the men with the BUK had Russian accents? And the tweets from the same men that were later deleted claiming to have shot down another Ukranian fighter jet? And the way they didn't let anybody visit the crash site for days? And how they negotiated with the Malaysian PM for days before releasing the black box.
Why do you choose to ignore all that and instead ask about changed flight paths and reports of Ukranian planes escorting the airliner?
Why don't you Google the names of the leaders of each of the separatist groups and see if they are actually Ukranians or professional Russian soldiers?
The most honest big picture assessment is to simply accept that all the big nations get up to all sorts of shit whilst attempting to paint themselves as pure and good and the other mob as evil and bad. And in the interim, as Aussies, when the US says jump we won't even pause to ask how high. Because we are acutely aware of the fact that if push ever comes to shove we can't defend ourselves and it remains our hope that the US just might. ("All the way with LBJ" was the catchcry when I was a boy - And not much has changed on that one it would seem.)
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer:"negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
Why do you choose to completely ignore the reports of troop and military vehicle movements back and forth between Russia and the separatist controlled areas? And the reports from reporters that the men with the BUK had Russian accents? And the tweets from the same men that were later deleted claiming to have shot down another Ukranian fighter jet? And the way they didn't let anybody visit the crash site for days? And how they negotiated with the Malaysian PM for days before releasing the black box.
Why do you choose to ignore all that and instead ask about changed flight paths and reports of Ukranian planes escorting the airliner?
Why don't you Google the names of the leaders of each of the separatist groups and see if they are actually Ukranians or professional Russian soldiers?
Not too hard to fake some radio messages and tweets and hardly conclusive evidence and I remember a pair of determined Australian parents accessed the site while the investigators stayed in their hotel rooms.
We could debate endlessly what is propaganda and what is not and all it proves is we don't know yet what exactly happened and neither does Abbot. All this does not change the fact that the true circumstances surrounding the event are hazy at best and it is embarrassing for this nation to have it's leader shoot his mouth off prematurely. It's OK on an internet forum to voice a half arsed opinion with no conclusive evidence but it is very unseemly and unwise for the leader of a nation to take such an undiplomatic and unmeasured approach.
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