Had a conversation with a mate around about the time the GFC kicked in. He was espousing the beauties of systems like the German one where home ownership rates are low - Reckoned not 'wasting' all that money paying off the principal on a home gave the populations more disposable income to have a good time with - Higher standard of living etc.
'Course knowing that he was and is both a Socialist and a taxationist, I can't help thinking back now and asking myself if only subconsciously, he just might have had the thought lurking somewhere deep in his brain, that it would also mean those populations would have more disposable income that he and his ilk could tax the arse off ...
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer:"negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
Thanks for the clarification of what exactly, your opinion?
Back to the pig pen....
So Germany has anti-speculation measures and taxes in place that have kept a lid on house prices, to the advantage of their productive assets.
It has more to do with the massive government rebuilding after the war and the surplus created after reunification
Quote:
After reunification, the government subsidized renovation in the former Communist east, causing a housing glut and price stagnation for about a decade. Among those who did buy then, many lost money—cementing the appeal of renting.
Germans park their savings in Government bonds who own the houses for which they pay overpriced rents (German houses are way undervalued according to the OECD) and life insurance products. Hardly the productive investment you appear to have just made that up.
As usual you pick up on anything that you could use to promote punitive measures on home owners rather than base your reasoning on facts.
You are obsessed with fantasizing about the government introducing a vast array of measure that punish home owners and leave renters like you not quite so far behind their peers.
You couch your debates in terms that you are helping young people or poorer people yet you are offering solutions blighting their futures, stealing their inheritance and making home ownership even more difficult ( by removing the benefits to using an investment property as a first step on the ladder).
Young people and poor people want to own a home in a vibrant growing city and invest in the future of their city to benefit in the same way as their parents did. They do not want a recession that would threaten their jobs at the most vulnerable stage of their wealth building.
IMO, you come across as a bitter old boomer wishing ill on your peers who invested in their homes and their communities by providing low cost rentals and got the benefit of those long term decisions.
Definition of a doom and gloomer from 1993 The last camp is made up of the doom-and-gloomers. Their slogan is "it's the end of the world as we know it". Right now they are convinced that debt is the evil responsible for all our economic woes and must be eliminated at all cost. Many doom-and-gloomers believe that unprecedented debt levels mean that we are on the precipice of a worse crisis than the Great Depression. The doom-and-gloomers hang on the latest series of negative economic data.
Thanks for the clarification of what exactly, your opinion?
Back to the pig pen....
So Germany has anti-speculation measures and taxes in place that have kept a lid on house prices, to the advantage of their productive assets.
There are no anti-speculation measures to speak of, and the taxes have fuck-all impact on house prices because they fall on the user and not the owner of the land.
German house prices are as they are because:
a) Every year less of them are needed. b) Germany's median house is in a small city the size of Newcastle.
What the German system does do is give an incredible incentive not to move house, whether you are an owner or a renter. This makes for extremely low labour mobility. This may provide some explanation for the strength of the Mittelstand in Germany.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. --Gloria Steinem AREPS™
There are no anti-speculation measures to speak of, and the taxes have fuck-all impact on house prices because they fall on the user and not the owner of the land.
German house prices are as they are because:
a) Every year less of them are needed. b) Germany's median house is in a small city the size of Newcastle.
What the German system does do is give an incredible incentive not to move house, whether you are an owner or a renter. This makes for extremely low labour mobility. This may provide some explanation for the strength of the Mittelstand in Germany.
MIW CGT of 25% and the land tax applies to all people, investors and the PPOR. I also agree the incentive not to move also proves to be anti-specualtion positive. I call that anti-speculation.
MIW CGT of 25% and the land tax applies to all people, investors and the PPOR. I also agree the incentive not to move also proves to be anti-specualtion positive. I call that anti-speculation.
Pauk, Germany effectively has a zero rate of CGT on property. If you hold for 10 years, you don't get taxed. Even in Australia, the supposed hotbed of speculation, average holding time is over 15 years.
Also, property in Germany, when you adjust for the city size, is also fucking expensive. Median price of a 200sqm detached house in Cologne is about $600k. Cologne is smaller than Adelaide. Median price for a 150sqm 3-bed apartment in Munich is AUD900k. Munich is smaller than Perth.
CGT of 25% and the land tax applies to all people, investors and the PPOR. I also agree the incentive not to move also proves to be anti-specualtion positive. I call that anti-speculation.
25% CGT is almost exactly the top CGT rate in oz. MIW has pointed out that investors don't pay land tax - it is directly passed onto the tenant. One could argue that land tax and rates are passed onto the tenant in oz by being built into the rent.
I don't know the minutiae of the German system (and neither do you Pauk!). But if the above was introduced here it would definitely encourage investing, and 'accidental LLs'. If I had to move for work why would I sell my PPOR and incur CGT? I'd just keep my former PPOR as an investment and either buy or rent in my new location. It's a dumb system that discourages labour force mobility. In such a geographically diverse country as oz labour force mobility should be encouraged.
A couple of years ago we had a German intern at work. He much preferred the mobility of the oz rental system.
A couple of years ago we had a German intern at work. He much preferred the mobility of the oz rental system.
Indeed. When I lived in Germany everyone I knew was constantly bitching about housing. They just bitched about different aspects of housing (other than that it was too fucking expensive, which seems to be a common complaint) than people in Australia. In particular, one complaint I heard a lot was that they couldn't buy a house because none was available and they couldn't build a house because all building sites that would come available in the next 10 years were already spoken for. The other common complaint was bitching about their latest lawsuit with their landlord.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. --Gloria Steinem AREPS™
Scabby More dribble.... Hitler introduced anti-speculation laws that have remained till today.
Seriously Pauk you take the cake for choosing to live in ignorance. You just ignored everything that does not suit you, whether it is Germans buying Irish homes or the effects of reunification.
There are none so blind as those who will not see
You respond with childish ageist name calling when you get into a corner, do you not aspire to better than that?
Definition of a doom and gloomer from 1993 The last camp is made up of the doom-and-gloomers. Their slogan is "it's the end of the world as we know it". Right now they are convinced that debt is the evil responsible for all our economic woes and must be eliminated at all cost. Many doom-and-gloomers believe that unprecedented debt levels mean that we are on the precipice of a worse crisis than the Great Depression. The doom-and-gloomers hang on the latest series of negative economic data.
Australian Property Forum is an economics and finance forum dedicated to discussion of Australian and global real estate markets and macroeconomics, including house prices, housing affordability, and the likelihood of a property crash. Is there an Australian housing bubble? Will house prices crash, boom or stagnate? Is the Australian property market a pyramid scheme or Ponzi scheme? Can house prices really rise forever? These are the questions we address on Australian Property Forum, the premier real estate site for property bears, bulls, investors, and speculators. Members may also discuss matters related to finance, modern monetary theory (MMT), debt deflation, cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin Ethereum and Ripple, property investing, landlords, tenants, debt consolidation, reverse home equity loans, the housing shortage, negative gearing, capital gains tax, land tax and macro prudential regulation.
Forum Rules:
The main forum may be used to discuss property, politics, economics and finance, precious metals, crypto currency, debt management, generational divides, climate change, sustainability, alternative energy, environmental topics, human rights or social justice issues, and other topics on a case by case basis. Topics unsuitable for the main forum may be discussed in the lounge. You agree you won't use this forum to post material that is illegal, private, defamatory, pornographic, excessively abusive or profane, threatening, or invasive of another forum member's privacy. Don't post NSFW content. Racist or ethnic slurs and homophobic comments aren't tolerated. Accusing forum members of serious crimes is not permitted. Accusations, attacks, abuse or threats, litigious or otherwise, directed against the forum or forum administrators aren't tolerated and will result in immediate suspension of your account for a number of days depending on the severity of the attack. No spamming or advertising in the main forum. Spamming includes repeating the same message over and over again within a short period of time. Don't post ALL CAPS thread titles. The Advertising and Promotion Subforum may be used to promote your Australian property related business or service. Active members of the forum who contribute regularly to main forum discussions may also include a link to their product or service in their signature block. Members are limited to one actively posting account each. A secondary account may be used solely for the purpose of maintaining a blog as long as that account no longer posts in threads. Any member who believes another member has violated these rules may report the offending post using the report button.
Australian Property Forum complies with ASIC Regulatory Guide 162 regarding Internet Discussion Sites. Australian Property Forum is not a provider of financial advice. Australian Property Forum does not in any way endorse the views and opinions of its members, nor does it vouch for for the accuracy or authenticity of their posts. It is not permitted for any Australian Property Forum member to post in the role of a licensed financial advisor or to post as the representative of a financial advisor. It is not permitted for Australian Property Forum members to ask for or offer specific buy, sell or hold recommendations on particular stocks, as a response to a request of this nature may be considered the provision of financial advice.
Views expressed on this forum are not representative of the forum owners. The forum owners are not liable or responsible for comments posted. Information posted does not constitute financial or legal advice. The forum owners accept no liability for information posted, nor for consequences of actions taken on the basis of that information. By visiting or using this forum, members and guests agree to be bound by the Zetaboards Terms of Use.
This site may contain copyright material (i.e. attributed snippets from online news reports), the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Such content is posted to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democratic, scientific, and social justice issues. This constitutes 'fair use' of such copyright material as provided for in section 107 of US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed for research and educational purposes only. If you wish to use this material for purposes that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Such material is credited to the true owner or licensee. We will remove from the forum any such material upon the request of the owners of the copyright of said material, as we claim no credit for such material.
Privacy Policy: Australian Property Forum uses third party advertising companies to serve ads when you visit our site. These third party advertising companies may collect and use information about your visits to Australian Property Forum as well as other web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services of interest to you. If you would like more information about this practice and to know your choices about not having this information used by these companies, click here: Google Advertising Privacy FAQ
Australian Property Forum is hosted by Zetaboards. Please refer also to the Zetaboards Privacy Policy