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Putin: Don't mess with Russia
Topic Started: 30 Aug 2014, 04:55 AM (1,136 Views)
Black Panther
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PUTIN: DON'T MESS WITH RUSSIA

LAKE SELIGER Russia (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin said on Friday Russia's armed forces, backed by its nuclear arsenal, were ready to meet any aggression, declaring at a pro-Kremlin youth camp that foreign states should understand: "It's best not to mess with us."

Putin told the assembly, on the banks of a lake near Moscow, the Russian takeover of Crimea in March was essential to save a largely Russian-speaking population from Ukrainian government violence. He said continued fighting in eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russian separatists launched an uprising in April, was the result of a refusal by Kiev to negotiate.

Ukraine, and Western governments, accuse Russia of sending troops and armor to back the separatists in a conflict that has already killed over 2,000 people. Russia denies the charge.

"Russia is far from being involved in any large-scale conflicts," he said at the camp on the banks of Lake Seliger. "We don't want that and don't plan on it. But naturally, we should always be ready to repel any aggression towards Russia.

"Russia's partners... should understand it's best not to mess with us," said Putin, dressed casually in a grey sweater and light blue jeans.

"Thank God, I think no one is thinking of unleashing a large-scale conflict with Russia. I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers."

Putin spoke easily with the students, many of whom looked to be asking scripted questions about demography and history. Other times he accepted gifts or, smilingly, played down their praise.

When a student said that she had not heard a single negative comment about Putin's presidency from camp speakers, he responded with a grin that "objectivity" was important.

His tone darkened when speaking on Ukraine, blaming the United States and the European Union for the "unconstitutional" removal of Kiev's former Moscow-backed president Viktor Yanukovich and replacement with a pro-European government.

He said eastern Ukraine did not agree with Yanukovich's removal and was now subjected to "crude military force" from government planes, tanks and artillery.

"If those are contemporary European values, then I'm simply disappointed in the highest degree," he said, comparing Ukraine's military operations in the east of the country with the Nazi siege of Leningrad in World War Two.

"Small villages and large cities surrounded by the Ukrainian army which is directly hitting residential areas with the aim of destroying the infrastructure... It sadly reminds me of the events of the Second World War, when German fascist... occupiers surrounded our cities."

http://news.yahoo.com/putin-says-russia-ready-respond-aggression-123956691.html
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Foxy
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Zero is coming...

WW3 seems to be coming.
Peter
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Jimbo
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Mustapha Mond
31 Aug 2014, 11:20 AM
WW3 seems to be coming.
I can't see there being another war between the superpowers of this world.

There would be no incentive to try and defeat an enemy who could just push a button as you were closing in on his bunker.

Ukraine will cause some headaches, but Putin knows he could just roll his tanks in tomorrow and the west wouldn't do much about it.

WWIII won't be a geographical war over physical borders. I will be an ideological battle fought in many theatres with no holds barred.

You could say that WWIII has already started and that it has been fought for the last ten or twenty years.

Each time the west gains a victory, the other side re groups and comes back bigger and stronger than before.

No doubt by Christmas, the yanks will have taken out a few ISIS leaders and taken back a bit of territory in Iraq and Hollywood will have made a film or ten about it. Then it will just kick off again but bigger and scarier than before.





Matthew, 30 Jan 2016, 09:21 AM Your simplistic view is so flawed it is not worth debating. The current oversupply will be swallowed in 12 months. By the time dumb shits like you realise this prices will already be :?: rising.
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Count du Monet
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Jimbo
31 Aug 2014, 01:22 PM
I can't see there being another war between the superpowers of this world.






WW3 is almost a certainty. The entire modern history of the Western world is marked by a series of warfaring periods culminating in a type of total war. The major winner then declares a "new world order" to last a thousand years but decays rapidly far before that.

1648, 1815, 1945. Each of these dates kicked a "new world order".

It's most likely Russia will become a target of aggression because of its resources.
The next trick of our glorious banks will be to charge us a fee for using net bank!!!
You are no longer customer, you are property!!!

Don't be SAUCY with me Bernaisse
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Mike
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A nation only needs to remind the world of their strength when they are trying to hide there weakness.

Russia's military is mostly out-dated and no match for NATO or the US. It has some elites units and core of well trained divisions. It has a large military but far from well trained or equipped by western standards.

Putin is reminding the world of Russia's nuclear weapons due to Russia's conventional weakness. Russias military would not last long in a Major war vs the vastly Superior US Military and NATO. The only things holding back the US is the cost of action (how man soldiers must we lose to defend the Ukraine), Russias nuclear weapons ( does the USA want to be in a position of full scale war with an equal nuclear power). Is Ukraine worth the risk of nuclear war.

My thoughts are yes, as Putin will not resort to full scale nuclear war. The west at most would eject Russia from Ukraine and Crimea, cripple Russia's military and advance no further. Putin could still retain power in a weakened position.

NATO and the US watched as the Soviet Union crushed dissent in Eastern Europe in the 50's and 60's. Even though many pushed for war against the USSR to liberate eastern Europe, leaders held there nerve.

The real question is not what Putin will do, It is what will Obama do. Obama holds all the Ace cards, however he may not deploy any of them other then crippling sanctions which over time may do more damage to Russia long term then any war would short of nuclear conflict. Russia is crippled long term, isolated and its power will fade along with its economy, all without the US firing shot. The only way for Putin to beat this is escalation, take western Ukraine force Obama to cave in an lift sanctions. That wont happen, instead the US would respond militarily. Can Putin scare Europe into lifting sanctions, life sanction or I kick of World War III, your choice? Would he do it. How would the west respond. Keep in mind if Putin loses this battle of wills, it is likely to result in a bullet to the back of his head by a former supporter, while if Obama loses he simply fades into history and a new president takes over. Obama's legacy will be the president who lost Ukraine, allowed ISIS to rampage. He has 2 and half years to work with. Perhaps Obama has now learn history does not stop because you want it to or declare peace in our time. That is like waving a white flag.

Then we will be in a situation where Russia invaded and took land from Georgia in 2008, Annexed the Crimea, and perhaps soon Annexes Easter Ukraine. This is starting to sound familiar. Russian reporters are beat up and put in Hospital when trying to report on the secret funerals of Russian Para troopers killed in the Ukraine. Suppress all opposition, imprison any one who speaks out against the party. Sounding like a familiar story.

They say history repeats itself.
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newjez
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Mike
31 Aug 2014, 05:58 PM
A nation only needs to remind the world of their strength when they are trying to hide there weakness.

Russia's military is mostly out-dated and no match for NATO or the US. It has some elites units and core of well trained divisions. It has a large military but far from well trained or equipped by western standards.

Putin is reminding the world of Russia's nuclear weapons due to Russia's conventional weakness. Russias military would not last long in a Major war vs the vastly Superior US Military and NATO. The only things holding back the US is the cost of action (how man soldiers must we lose to defend the Ukraine), Russias nuclear weapons ( does the USA want to be in a position of full scale war with an equal nuclear power). Is Ukraine worth the risk of nuclear war.

My thoughts are yes, as Putin will not resort to full scale nuclear war. The west at most would eject Russia from Ukraine and Crimea, cripple Russia's military and advance no further. Putin could still retain power in a weakened position.

NATO and the US watched as the Soviet Union crushed dissent in Eastern Europe in the 50's and 60's. Even though many pushed for war against the USSR to liberate eastern Europe, leaders held there nerve.

The real question is not what Putin will do, It is what will Obama do. Obama holds all the Ace cards, however he may not deploy any of them other then crippling sanctions which over time may do more damage to Russia long term then any war would short of nuclear conflict. Russia is crippled long term, isolated and its power will fade along with its economy, all without the US firing shot. The only way for Putin to beat this is escalation, take western Ukraine force Obama to cave in an lift sanctions. That wont happen, instead the US would respond militarily. Can Putin scare Europe into lifting sanctions, life sanction or I kick of World War III, your choice? Would he do it. How would the west respond. Keep in mind if Putin loses this battle of wills, it is likely to result in a bullet to the back of his head by a former supporter, while if Obama loses he simply fades into history and a new president takes over. Obama's legacy will be the president who lost Ukraine, allowed ISIS to rampage. He has 2 and half years to work with. Perhaps Obama has now learn history does not stop because you want it to or declare peace in our time. That is like waving a white flag.

Then we will be in a situation where Russia invaded and took land from Georgia in 2008, Annexed the Crimea, and perhaps soon Annexes Easter Ukraine. This is starting to sound familiar. Russian reporters are beat up and put in Hospital when trying to report on the secret funerals of Russian Para troopers killed in the Ukraine. Suppress all opposition, imprison any one who speaks out against the party. Sounding like a familiar story.

They say history repeats itself.
I think Obama will be known as the guy who carefully led the US back to recovery and didn't fuck up by fighting a pointless war in a backwater that no one really gives a toss about.
Whenever you have an argument with someone, there comes a moment where you must ask yourself, whatever your political persuasion, 'am I the Nazi?'
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Count du Monet
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newjez
31 Aug 2014, 06:13 PM
I think Obama will be known as the guy who carefully led the US back to recovery and didn't fuck up by fighting a pointless war in a backwater that no one really gives a toss about.
Winners pick their wars carefully.
The next trick of our glorious banks will be to charge us a fee for using net bank!!!
You are no longer customer, you are property!!!

Don't be SAUCY with me Bernaisse
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Barista
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1. They would like you to think that there is a Russian invasion in the East of Ukraine. What’s actually happening is a civil war between the government of Western Ukraine (which no longer rules the east in any definable way) and the Russian population of Eastern Ukraine. Ukraine has been falling apart for decades—ever since independence. The eventual break-up was inevitable, but the catalyst for it was the military overthrow of Ukraine’s legitimate government and its replacement with cadres hand-picked in Washington.

I would generally agree with it except for the last sentence suggesting the last government was legitimate. Ukraine has never had a government with anything remotely approaching legitimacy – they have had governments win elections, but they have always been criminal oligarchs or putative criminal oligarchs. I would for this reason agree that Ukraine has been something of a failure in the post Soviet era (not that it was a raging success story under the Soviets)

2. They would like you to think that the Russian government stands behind Lugansk People’s Republic and Donetsk People’s Republic—the two regions which, based on referendum results, have chosen to break away from Kiev. In fact, the Russian government has refused to recognize these republics. They have received no official political support from Moscow, which asked for the referendums to be postponed, and repeatedly asked for a cease-fire and an international, negotiated settlement to the crisis. The leadership of LPR and DPR has refused, and now aims for an outright military victory.

The Russian government does stand behind the separatists one way or the other – It hasn’t recognised them yet because it is not politically expedient to do so and it is politically expedient to keep them in play until such point as the annexation of Crimea by Russia gains international acceptance. They had had plenty of unofficial support from Moscow, and anybody knowing anything about Moscow would know they wouldn’t be getting it without someone official giving it the OK. The reason Moscow is supporting them (although certainly not supporting them as much as it could, is because it couldn’t sit by – for domestic political considerations – and do nothing as Ukraine government types proclaimed Russia as the great evil and set about slaughtering ‘Russians’ [even though they are Eastern Ukrainians]. A quick look at Russian TV will indicate how close the public sentiment ties are.

3. They would like you to believe that the Russian government is arming the “rebels” in Eastern Ukraine. To the contrary, the Russian government has withheld all military support, limiting itself to providing humanitarian supplies to the hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been destroyed by artillery and rocket fire coming from the Ukrainian forces. The weapons in the “rebels’” arsenal are trophies, which they seized from the retreating Ukrainian forces. That said, the “rebels” are indeed being supported—but by the Russian people, not the Russian government. Remember, these are all Russians, on both sides of the border, and the Ukrainian government no longer controls any of it.

I think the Russian government is certainly providing plenty of military support – not enough to enable the rebels to defeat the Ukraine government forces, but enough to ensure they arent wiped out. With that support the rebels have been good at knocking off Ukraine government bases for further armaments. Beyond all this is the cold hard fact that ties between Russia and Ukraine militaries are actually very close (I have posted a link previously on this) and that links between the Ukraine military and the rebels are also quite close as well as the fact there are plenty of Oligarch types who would be keen to ensure armaments were bought and sold as long as they got a cut. There are also significant numbers of Ukraine army conscripts deserting

4. They want to convince you that Russia poses a threat to peace in Europe, and that the crisis in Ukraine is part of an imperialist Russian strategy to resurrect the USSR. Nothing could be further from the truth. The overarching Russian ambition is for Russia to be a normal country, subject of international law, at peace with the whole world, and integrated into the global economy. The Russian government is doing next to nothing to prevent Russians in areas that were once part of Russia from being slaughtered right in their homes using artillery and rocket fire. This makes for a distressing spectacle, but the Russian people understand that enlarging the military conflict beyond the by now purely notional borders of Ukraine is not the answer.

I agree with this – Russia has been the go to ‘bad guy’ for generations, and it is again the default setting here. Why the west wouldn’t identify that Ukraine was a failed democracy and come to a deal with Russia about how it could be managed with both their interests – and some more interest for the Ukraine people in particular – is beyond me. Russia poses no threat to Europe whatsoever, and trying to threaten Europe via Ukraine would silly. That said Russia is also concerned about what it sees as NATO encroachment or EU encirclement and trying to push Ukraine membership of the EU is seen in this light [although I think the notion of Ukraine in the EU is fairly false within any measurable timeframe – the EU doesn’t have the funds, political preparedness to absorb Ukraine]

5. They want to assure you that Kiev will eventually prevail in the conflict. In fact, the Ukrainian military is being systematically destroyed. Shelling civilians is the only activity which they have been able to carry out successfully. The government in Kiev has instituted three mobilizations, one after the other, sending into battle boys and old men (maximum draft age is now 60). Their soldiers are badly armed, badly trained, completely demoralized, and they mostly refuse to fight. The casualties run into the tens of thousands. Ukraine is quickly running out of tanks and APCs, which are all old Soviet-era and have been rusting for decades. It appears that Ukraine no longer has an air force at all. The war is far from over, but now, for the first time, LPR and DPR actually have something resembling an army, and that army is going on attack. Once the Ukrainian military collapses altogether, it seems likely that other parts of Ukraine will declare independence from Kiev.

I tend to agree with this insofar as Ukraine has had a major PR debacle inside Ukraine with its approach to drafting people [and they do surrender, particularly where they are from eastern Ukraine] and the general unpopularity of taking part in what is known to be happening in Eastern Ukraine – that said the rebels also have major personnel issues, though they tend to be fairly united by seeing themselves as fighting for their homeland

6. They want you to think that the government in Kiev is legitimate, popular and stable. In fact, there are huge protests going on in Kiev at this very moment. The entire country is beyond bankrupt and is falling apart in real time, not just in the east, but everywhere. The people are beyond angry. The military units retreating from the east are in a foul mood, and may soon decide to turn their weapons against those who ordered them into battle. The people are beyond angry, and it seems probable that another revolution, only half a year since the last one, is in the works.

He is right here, there are massive protests happening now and scheduled for the near future in Kiev, including a massive ‘mothers’ protest about drafting. There is particular anger about the new government, as there was with the old government, mainly because a lot of people realise that either side is composed mainly of oligarchs trying to control outcomes, that ordinary people arent getting any sense of anything democratic, and the economy is a disaster area with winter now approaching [circa 9-12 weeks away for first snow] and their largest export market [Russia] closed, and the likelihood that they will be going without gas – as well as the fact that the EU will not allow them to cross the borders
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Veritas
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All military history is meaningless before 1945 in terms of trends.

The advent of nuclear weapons saw to that.

Superpowers will not be going to war with each other.

Property acquisition as a topic was almost a national obsession. You couldn't even call it speculation as the buyers all presumed the price of property could only go up. That’s why we use the word obsession. Ordinary people were buying properties for their young children who had not even left school assuming they would not be able to afford property of their own when they left college- Klaus Regling on Ireland. Sound familiar?

The evidence of nearly 40 cycles in house prices for 17 OECD economies since 1970 shows that real house prices typically give up about 70 per cent of their rise in the subsequent fall, and that these falls occur slowly.
Morgan Kelly:On the Likely Extent of Falls in Irish House Prices, 2007
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