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Recovery of Pension Expenses; Confiscate the family home to repay the debt to the taxpayer
Topic Started: 21 Aug 2014, 04:35 PM (2,202 Views)
herbie
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miw
21 Aug 2014, 07:19 PM
Obviously you had the same horrible vision as I did when you read Peter's post.

That's spooky Herb and I don't like it.
Try to not think of Gina Rinehart in particular as you are contemplating the thought just maybe MIW? ... :)
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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miw
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herbie
21 Aug 2014, 07:23 PM
Try to not think of Gina Rinehart in particular as you are contemplating the thought just maybe MIW? ... :)
How to ruin my day and my keyboard in one fell swoop.

Fuck you Herbie. :-)

Oh shit. Now I just thought of Clive Palmer.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.
--Gloria Steinem
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herbie
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miw
21 Aug 2014, 07:26 PM
Oh shit. Now I just thought of Clive Palmer.
LOL!!! ... :D
Edited by herbie, 21 Aug 2014, 07:35 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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zaph
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Fat shits should die! - twice!
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vdmruss
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herbie
21 Aug 2014, 07:10 PM
Then to return to my original question "Why bother buying a house (or acquiring any other assets in your life), if at the end of the day, the State is just going to take them off you?"

With another question being "Just why would it break your heart so much to give Gina back threepence of all the tax she paid over the years just so you can presumably give all those who've paid squat taxes over the years/pissed their income over the years up against the wall, just a tiny bit more?"
The state doesn't take the house away from you. It only replenishes what you have taken from state.

For example, an Inheritance Tax would be the State stripping you of your assets.

You are free to provide for your own future and nothing will be taken away.

Why should I exactly feel guilty leaving Gina without a pension? People who paid squat taxes over the years and have no savings for retirement receive the pension today anyway.

The taxes we pay are used for the facilities and infrastructure today. Perhaps we need some sort of a system where a certain % is deducted from your wage and invested for the future to guarantee retirement? :re:

I think what I am talking about will play out in the future (means testing the family home will be a start - it will happen sooner or later) and superannuation will play a part in unwinding this as well.
Let me assure you that this isn't one of those shady pyramid schemes that you've been hearing about. No sir, our model is the Trapezoid which guarantees each investor an 800% return within hours.
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peter fraser
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vdmruss
21 Aug 2014, 08:18 PM
The state doesn't take the house away from you. It only replenishes what you have taken from state.

For example, an Inheritance Tax would be the State stripping you of your assets.

You are free to provide for your own future and nothing will be taken away.

Why should I exactly feel guilty leaving Gina without a pension? People who paid squat taxes over the years and have no savings for retirement receive the pension today anyway.

The taxes we pay are used for the facilities and infrastructure today. Perhaps we need some sort of a system where a certain % is deducted from your wage and invested for the future to guarantee retirement? :re:

I think what I am talking about will play out in the future (means testing the family home will be a start - it will happen sooner or later) and superannuation will play a part in unwinding this as well.
I've just had a good idea - what about a renters tax? Everyone who doesn't own a house can pay $5000 per annum because they have never created work for surveyors, architects, earthmovers, builders, developers, agents, banks, solicitors, valuers, lawn mower suppliers, furniture makers, carpet layers, baby needs suppliers, obstetricians, window washers, and everyone else who hangs on housing.

Maybe we could tax the unemployed - why hasn't anyone thought of that?

We should tax everyone but me. In fact I could collect those taxes for a small admin fee.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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ThePauk
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Vdmruss
We have put some aside, it is called the Future Fund to fund govt employee supers. Problem is at only $100 billion, it is $170 billion short of what is required.
peter fraser
21 Aug 2014, 08:33 PM
I've just had a good idea - what about a renters tax? Everyone who doesn't own a house can pay $5000 per annum because they have never created work for surveyors, architects, earthmovers, builders, developers, agents, banks, solicitors, valuers, lawn mower suppliers, furniture makers, carpet layers, baby needs suppliers, obstetricians, window washers, and everyone else who hangs on housing.

Maybe we could tax the unemployed - why hasn't anyone thought of that?

We should tax everyone but me. In fact I could collect those taxes for a small admin fee.
Peter
Your and Zaph's lighthearted approach to what is a very serious issue, just shows lack of understanding of the issues at hand.

The OP was thought bubble and that should be praised as a thinking solution. I am not sure how it would play out exactly as say someone got 20 years of a $20k per year pension, so they owe back $400k, without interest. There house is worth $600k, so the suggestion is to leave only $200k for inheritance. Not a bad plan, however for those that have not saved or own any assets, then they would get the $400k of 20 years pension and not have to repay anything. Problems here.


I think making the PPOR exempt up to $750k is the answer. Anything over that get counted in the asset test. Perhaps it could just be the VG amount and save any valuation issues, so perhaps a VG amount of $400k should be exempt from the pension asset test.

The point here is that the massive rise in house prices is mainly untaxed as any capital gain is exempt for the PPOR. Either we make the PPOR pay full CGT if sold under ten years or we introduce a suitable cap on the exemption on the PPOR from the pensions asset test. I would rather see a CGT on all property sold under ten years and no stamps. I am also happy to see a reasonable and easily calutaed cap on the level of exemption for the PPOR for the pension asset test.
Edited by ThePauk, 21 Aug 2014, 08:43 PM.
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vdmruss
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peter fraser
21 Aug 2014, 08:33 PM
I've just had a good idea - what about a renters tax? Everyone who doesn't own a house can pay $5000 per annum because they have never created work for surveyors, architects, earthmovers, builders, developers, agents, banks, solicitors, valuers, lawn mower suppliers, furniture makers, carpet layers, baby needs suppliers, obstetricians, window washers, and everyone else who hangs on housing.

Maybe we could tax the unemployed - why hasn't anyone thought of that?

We should tax everyone but me. In fact I could collect those taxes for a small admin fee.
Huh? I am pushing forward an idea for taxing people less.

What are you going on about? Taxing the unemployed? Taxing renters?

I was referring to superannuation in my earlier post. This is the first step toward eventual obsolescence of the pension system.

When you look at the current situation, benefits for the unemployed will soon be removed for the under 30s. Don't look at me cross-eyed when I attack the concept of retirement in a mansion at the expense of the taxpayer.
Let me assure you that this isn't one of those shady pyramid schemes that you've been hearing about. No sir, our model is the Trapezoid which guarantees each investor an 800% return within hours.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
"It's an itchy blanket, it's designed to remind you how lucky you are"
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peter fraser
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ThePauk
21 Aug 2014, 08:33 PM
Vdmruss
We have put some aside, it is called the Future Fund to fund govt employee supers. Problem is at only $100 billion, it is $170 billion short of what is required.

Peter
Your and Zaph's lighthearted approach to what is a very serious issue, just shows lack of understanding of the issues at hand.

The OP was thought bubble and that should be praised as a thinking solution. I am not sure how it would play out exactly as say someone got 20 years of a $20k per year pension, so they owe back $400k, without interest. There house is worth $600k, so the suggestion is to leave only $200k for inheritance. Not a bad plan, however for those that have not saved or own any assets, then they would get the $400k of 20 years pension and not have to repay anything. Problems here.


I think making the PPOR exempt up to $750k is the answer. Anything over that get counted in the asset test. Perhaps it could just be the VG amount and save any valuation issues, so perhaps a VG amount of $400k should be exempt from the pension asset test.

The point here is that the massive rise in house prices is mainly untaxed as any capital gain is exempt for the PPOR. Either we make the PPOR pay full CGT if sold under ten years or we introduce a suitable cap on the exemption on the PPOR from the pensions asset test. I would rather see a CGT on all property sold under ten years and no stamps. I am also happy to see a reasonable and easily calutaed cap on the level of exemption for the PPOR for the pension asset test.
How much would someone who doesn't own a house have to pay. How much would they pay if the spent everything that they ever earned, how much would they pay if they have never worked but lived on the dole all of their lives.

Would they pay the same as granny who held down a job, worked hard and paid off her house?

Because if granny pays more than some deadbeat who has never worked, why would granny go to work? Why don't we all do nothing and live on the dole.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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miw
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ThePauk
21 Aug 2014, 08:33 PM
The OP was thought bubble and that should be praised as a thinking solution. I am not sure how it would play out exactly as say someone got 20 years of a $20k per year pension, so they owe back $400k, without interest. There house is worth $600k, so the suggestion is to leave only $200k for inheritance. Not a bad plan, however for those that have not saved or own any assets, then they would get the $400k of 20 years pension and not have to repay anything. Problems here.
Yeah. It's a bit unfair to shoot the messenger. But the response was exactly what the general public would come up with, which is why it would never fly.

I even think it might be a good idea on the first pass, as long as *all* welfare including unemployment benefits, medicare, disability pensions, etc etc were treated as loans that could be recouped from the estate. But it would never fly, and even if it did you'd just see people doing their inter-generational transfers while still healthy. The bigger a tax is, the more incentive there is to avoid it.

If I were the dictator I'd go back to the old system of giving everyone the same pension without means test, but make it taxable income and fund the cost by raising the GST and the tax level on super contributions.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.
--Gloria Steinem
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