It's actually the students who get it right and Ferguson who gets it wrong. The thing that aided western dominance was this thing.
This was how the west competed fairly with the rest of the world. A lot of people think it was the handgun, but it was field and ship artillery that changed the face of warfare. And it was Medieval Europe that became the masters of iron production, China always had lousy iron resources in any case. The price of Iron fell 7x in price from 1350 to 1720 in Sweden. Even the middle east couldn't compete, Europe always had access to wider ranging metal and timber resources.
As for the Chinese producing 400 foot long wooden ships, indeed they could have produced these and floated them on inland waterways as barges. But for the open Ocean a 200 foot keel length is the absolute limit for purely wooden ships. The Ocean roll breaks their back. Nothing unusual here, the Greeco-Romans produced barges of 300 to 400 feet in length, but these don't go well on open Ocean.
As for the celestial kingdom "turning inwards" the absolute masters of "turning inwards" was Europe that did so in spectacular fashion for a thousand years. When Aristotle's works reappeared in Europe the first impulse was find ways to burn them.
Ferguson does get one thing correct, this is West Mark II. West Mark I rose and fell in spectacular fashion. The present one is now on the clear path to spectacular collapse in the centuries to come.
This was how the west competed fairly with the rest of the world. A lot of people think it was the handgun, but it was field and ship artillery that changed the face of warfare. And it was Medieval Europe that became the masters of iron production, China always had lousy iron resources in any case. The price of Iron fell 7x in price from 1350 to 1720 in Sweden. Even the middle east couldn't compete, Europe always had access to wider ranging metal and timber resources.
Sure the technology and materials were important, but personally I'd say the big innovations from Europe were the modern nation state (Treaty of Westphalia 1648 etc) and the limited liability/joint stock company (East India Company, Dutch East India Company, etc.)
The political and corporate innovation gave the background, motivation and capital structure to take over India and China. If anyone had said in 1700 that England could colonise and control India, they would have been laughed at as madmen.
India could never have been conquered if the EIC had not been sitting around there trying to ensure profitable trade just when the Mughal Empire imploded, and China could have crushed England had they not been hobbled by a feudal system that actively discouraged technology.
Anyway, these discussions about "the one thing that......." are bullshit but fun.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. --Gloria Steinem AREPS™
The key to power in world trade was the gunboat. The Chinese and Indians actually had faster ships, unfortunately they got reduced to matchwood when they got within a quarter mile of the European gunboat. All this nonsense about the superiority of Western Trading methods, is just that, nonsense. In actual fact until the Opium War, the trade balance was always in China's favor, the Westerners wanted Chinese goods more than the Chinese wanted western goods.
The Westerners had cornered the market on building a strong ship, packing it with cannons and sailing the right way. Beyond that the barbaric Occidentals could be said to be more dynamic and adventurous. The Western method of trade consisted of sailing a gunboat into an oriental harbor and dominating it with cannon.
The majority of technical, mathematical and scientific advances occurred after world trade was already progress, because then there was a need for them. Actually Indian mathematics was more advanced that the European until the 17th century. It was in the 17th century that European land warfare became more advanced, the Chinese and Indians were still trying to fight with methods belonged to the 15th and 16th centuries.
But the real clue for why Western Europe became dominant was because of the Mongols. The Mongols had devastated every part of populated Eurasian world except.....Western Europe. The only part of the Eurasian Continent that escaped the Mongols was the one that rose to dominance. I think this is more than coincidence.
But Europe with its isthmuses and islands was just the place where naval technology would take off.
As for the comfortable lifestyles for the masses, the average middle easterner, Indian or Chinese had equal if not better standards of living than the average Westerner until the end of the Napoleonic wars.
Colt didn't make his 6 gun because he suddenly got a bright idea. He built it because graded steel had become available at a generally affordable price to build an efficient pistol. The principle of the steam turbine had been demonstrated in ancient Alexandria. But it wasn't until the 17th century that iron working had progressed to the point that steam engines could be built.
Technology preceded Science.
And the greatest advances where generally the product of non conformist Protestants, who emphasized social cooperation, honesty and good manners over competition. The first English American colony Jamestown the product of competitive capitalists remained a failure for half a century. The puritan pilgrims got into surplus within a decade. Ferguson peddles nonsense that will be the death of the West!
Stuff the six apps, just give me the cannon!
The next trick of our glorious banks will be to charge us a fee for using net bank!!! You are no longer customer, you are property!!!
Ask yourself why the Europeans had cannons and why they put them on boats.
The Chinese had cannon and other gunpowder weapons in the Ming and early Qing dynasties, but the manufacture of cannon was suppressed by emperor Yong Zheng because if he had an insurrection he would rather face bows and arrows, and anyhow his enemies did not have firearms. European countries on the other hand were surrounded by cannons.
British Envoy George McCartney presented Emperor Qianlong with cannon and models of precursors to the famous british steam gunboats in 1793, but they were immediately hidden away in the summer palace.
Even after the Opium war the self-strengthening movement was suppressed, because the feudal rulers knew that advances in technology would change the political system.
If the Europeans hadn't been a bunch of warring nation states maybe they would not have allowed the technologies to advance either.
Without the rise of mercantilism there would have been no motivation or finance for the British to conquer India and later on take on China. The British steam gunboat was a symptom, not a cause. Until there was territory and concessions to protect and expand, they were not required.
It is also no coincidence that Japan became a major military power almost immediately after the Meiji reforms, not before.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. --Gloria Steinem AREPS™
If the Europeans hadn't been a bunch of warring nation states maybe they would not have allowed the technologies to advance either.
Interesting point. Historians argue the fall of the Roman Empire prevented Europe becoming another China. In fact the Late Roman Empire in so many ways was behaving in a similar fashion to China. Of course the Empires often fell in China, but was soon replaced by a new Empire that was really the old Empire resurrected.
The second episode expires in a few days, so get it while it's hot.
Interesting point. Historians argue the fall of the Roman Empire prevented Europe becoming another China. In fact the Late Roman Empire in so many ways was behaving in a similar fashion to China. Of course the Empires often fell in China, but was soon replaced by a new Empire that was really the old Empire resurrected.
Yes. I think you are right.
I've heard it said that once an empire retreats into its garrisons and the military become a tool solely for maintaining internal order, it will decline. This is true both of the Roman empire and the Chinese empire.
In many cases the fall of one dynasty in China was followed by a new dynasty that was really just a reshuffling of the feudal hierarchy, but not always. The Northern Wei, Liao, Yuan and Qing dynasties were all outside invaders. The Qing (Manchus) were the last potent external threat on the map, and of course once they defeated the Ming they were ruling the Han Chinese - an internal threat - so their attitude to technological advancement in weaponry was naturally very different from that of the Ming, whose threats were mostly external.
No Chinese will ever admit this to you while sober, but there is still an ongoing power struggle between the remnant Manchu aristocracy and the original Han Chinese. It is amazing how often, when I talk to someone with serious connections and power, that I find they are from one of the old "Banner Families" (Qing aristocracy). Sometimes you can suss it out from the family name, but definitely not always.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. --Gloria Steinem AREPS™
Ferguson compares the growth of North America and South American and propagandizes how good capitalism makes a difference. Aid of course by legion of regularly beaten negro slaves.
Funny thing is few people know the prior to use of African slavery, Irish chattel slaves had been widely used in many colonies and treated as harshly as the later African slaves. But Ferguson skillfully bends around that.
The next trick of our glorious banks will be to charge us a fee for using net bank!!! You are no longer customer, you are property!!!
But for the open Ocean a 200 foot keel length is the absolute limit for purely wooden ships. The Ocean roll breaks their back. Nothing unusual here, the Greeco-Romans produced barges of 300 to 400 feet in length, but these don't go well on open Ocean.
cough cough
Quote:
Wyoming was a wooden six-masted schooner, the largest wooden schooner ever built. She was built and completed in 1909 by the firm of Percy & Small in Bath, Maine.[1] Wyoming was also one of the largest wooden ships ever built, 450 ft (140 m) from jib-boom tip to spanker boom tip, and the last six-masted schooner built on the east coast of the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(schooner)
Ignore posts by The Whole Truth · View Post · End Ignoring The forum fuckwit goes RRRAAARRRGGHHhhh - But not a fuck was given..................by anyone.
An interesting thing is comparing the 2 Empires, is China was more isolated as regards external military pressure. China had on generally less exposed front to worry about. Rome had to defend the entire Rhine and Danube front and then in the ME deal with an increasingly aggressive Sassanian Empire. Even more critical the German Barbarians were populous and came large numbers. The Roman Empire had reached a population height of around 100 million by the late 2nd century. After that overpopulation, Mal-nutrition, mineral exhaustion contributed to wars and plague that might seen the Roman population halve. The only populous region outside of the empires control in Europe was Germany with probably about 10 million. Few what ever reason the rest of Europe had a very population density. Even North Africa was conquered by a German tribe that had trekked through France and Spain.
The Late Roman Empire, which looking more like China with each new day and had reduced its idea of citizenship to virtual chattel slavery in feudalism. Because the price of labour was fixed, artisans found little to gain for their efforts. In the end sons were compelled to follow their father trades to produce goodies for the entrenched Roman elite. The German peasant if he made good had upward mobility. This last bit is in league with Fergusson's ideals.
The Roman peasant had little interest in increasingly Chinese style slave soldier service. Many Roman peasants escaped oppressive taxation and military service to wilderness regions to live like Robin Hoods known as barcanae. Many of these joined with the German invaders.
The odd thing is the Chinese might have a little more environmentally conscious, where as the Romans exploited the environment and resources to exhaustion. This last factor was only fully understood in recent readings of Greenland ice cores. The warning is there, eventually the New West will destroy itself through environmental exhaustion.
Frank Castle
14 Sep 2014, 10:23 AM
cough cough
Quote:
Wyoming was built of yellow pine with 6" planking and there were 90 diagonal iron cross-bracings on each side.
Sorry Frank I've years spent engaging in amateurish reading on the subject.
Quote:
Wyoming was built of yellow pine with 6" planking and there were 90 diagonal iron cross-bracing's on each side.
Even the Cutty Sark was built with iron framing. With pure wooden framing the keel limit is around 200 feet. The first major use of iron in ship construction was in the Napoleonic wars. Iron cross reinforcing's enabled post Napoleonic ships with a 250 feet length. Later iron keels even more. The Wyoming was wooden planking on an iron framework.
The Romans and Chinese might have built wooden barges up to 450 feet, but these could only be used generally in sheltered inland waterways.
The Chinese certainly could have used such as warships the battles they had in the great inland waterways. The Ptolemies of Egypt built them to defend the Nile. But on the open ocean their backs would be broken.
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