A dude or two climbed up my ribs a while back when I mentioned my accountant had done same - When I commented that I recalled he had.
And also commented that it had seemed a bit strange to me too. But additionally commented that I'd queried it and he reckoned it was correct. Plus maybe commented that I reckoned I'd done my best re trying to ensure I was paying the required tax by doing so? But even if I didn't comment to that effect, reckoned I had. And felt just a little bit inclined to tell the taxationist whingers to go fuck 'em selves. But am about as sure as I can be that I didn't - For some strange reason???
But anyway, just on the off chance it could be of use to anyone, I was doing a tidy up recently and came on corro pertaining to same.
My accountant's reply to my questioning his action was:
"Have claimed the loss based on meeting the profit test of the non-commercial losses test (business profit in 3 out of 5 past years)"
Make what you will of it 'n do what you will with it. 'N if it happens to be of any practical assistance to anyone, that's nice ...
A dude or two climbed up my ribs a while back when I mentioned my accountant had done same - When I commented that I recalled he had.
And also commented that it had seemed a bit strange to me too. But additionally commented that I'd queried it and he reckoned it was correct. Plus maybe commented that I reckoned I'd done my best re trying to ensure I was paying the required tax by doing so? But even if I didn't comment to that effect, reckoned I had. And felt just a little bit inclined to tell the taxationist whingers to go fuck 'em selves. But am about as sure as I can be that I didn't - For some strange reason???
But anyway, just on the off chance it could be of use to anyone, I was doing a tidy up recently and came on corro pertaining to same.
My accountant's reply to my questioning his action was:
"Have claimed the loss based on meeting the profit test of the non-commercial losses test (business profit in 3 out of 5 past years)"
Make what you will of it 'n do what you will with it. 'N if it happens to be of any practical assistance to anyone, that's nice ...
Just after midnight.
We're you on the cusp of drink-fuelled annihilation when you wrote this? It makes no sense to me
Collecting desperation. Ex-Bp Golly April 2 2015. "I see with a slight overshoot -70% [fall in Sydney house prices] as being well within possibility"
The background being that there were some on here some time back (on another thread pretty obviously) who contended that you couldn't claim a trading loss against other stuff like salary income in the year the loss was realised; Rather you had to carry the loss forward to be claimed against a future trading profit. I said that my recollection was that my accountant had claimed a loss I had made against other income and not carried it forward.
And yes, it would seem that in certain circumstances, you can claim it as a loss at the time. Against salary income etc. See the link for the detail (if genuinely interested).
The background being that there were some on here some time back (on another thread pretty obviously) who contended that you couldn't claim a trading loss against other stuff like salary income in the year the loss was realised; Rather you had to carry the loss forward to be claimed against a future trading profit. I said that my recollection was that my accountant had claimed a loss I had made against other income and not carried it forward.
I remember the thread you're talking about. Myself and others were all under the same understanding of share losses. I think I said to stay by the phone so the taxman could call you on Monday for a chat
I remember the thread you're talking about. Myself and others were all under the same understanding of share losses. I think I said to stay by the phone so the taxman could call you on Monday for a chat
Ta GBD - I basically just hope the link helps some out of course ...
And I would not have been able to google it up (most likely) if it wasn't for the fact I found that old corro from my accountant last night when doing a tidy up. And the previous thread discussions came back to me. At which time I commented on it again.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer:"negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
Ta GBD - I basically just hope the link helps some out of course ...
And I would not have been able to google it up (most likely) if it wasn't for the fact I found that old corro from my accountant last night when doing a tidy up. And the previous thread discussions came back to me. At which time I commented on it again.
I think that you may be talking about share trading losses IE if you sell shares for a loss then that loss would be written off against later share trading profits rather than against personal income or dividend income.
Same for any loss on the sale of investment property.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
I think that you may be talking about share trading losses IE if you sell shares for a loss then that loss would be written off against later share trading profits rather than against personal income or dividend income.
My loss was on bullion trading (and a bit on currency if I recall correct?) - And yes, while it would seem that you are correct as an ultimate 'fall back' position Peter, the link pretty clearly indicates that there are circumstances under which the loss can be claimed in the year it was realised against such stuff as salary income ... Did you read the link before making your comment???
FYI it says:
" Provided the non-commercial losses rules are satisfied, the Australian Taxation Office (ATO) allows traders to claim an immediate deduction for their trading losses and offset them against other taxable income, such as salary and wages, interest and dividends.
The ATO will only allow you to offset your trading loss against assessable income from other sources if: ◾you earn less than $250,000 and satisfy one of the four non-commercial losses tests below (profits test, assessable income test, other assets test, real property test); or ◾the Commissioner of Taxation uses his discretion to allow you to claim the loss (this rarely happens).
The non-commercial losses limit the ability of taxpayers to offset business losses against other assessment income unless one or more of the following tests are met: ◾assessable income generated by the business is at least $20,000 (assessable income test); ◾the business shows a profit for at least three out of the last five years (profits test); ◾the business has property or an interest in real property with at least $500,000 on a continuing basis (real property test); or ◾the business has at least $100,000 of other assets being used on a continuing basis (other assets test).
Assuming that you satisfied those rules then you can qualify for claiming the loss in your tax return this year. If you have earnt less than $10,000 in other income to offset these losses then you show your taxable income as zero. The remainder of the unutilised losses are carried forward and can be offset against incomes in future years.
It is important that you have been conducting your business activities for the sole purpose of earning income from the buying and selling of investments. Please note that If an Australian Taxation Office (ATO) audit finds that you have incorrectly claimed trading losses and you are unable to satisfactorily show that you are carrying on an investment business, then your deduction will be disallowed and penalties may apply.
If you were an investor, rather than a trader, then these losses would be classified as capital losses which could only be offset against capital gains. They cannot be offset against normal assessable income but If you don’t have any capital gains to ffset them against in this tax year then they can be carried forward indefinitely until used in full."
My loss was on bullion trading (and a bit on currency if I recall correct?) - And yes, while it would seem that you are correct as an ultimate 'fall back' position Peter, the link pretty clearly indicates that there are circumstances under which the loss can be claimed in the year it was realised against such stuff as salary income ... Did you read the link before making your comment???
FYI it says:
" Provided the non-commercial losses rules are satisfied, the Australian Taxation Office (ATO) allows traders to claim an immediate deduction for their trading losses and offset them against other taxable income, such as salary and wages, interest and dividends.
The ATO will only allow you to offset your trading loss against assessable income from other sources if: ◾you earn less than $250,000 and satisfy one of the four non-commercial losses tests below (profits test, assessable income test, other assets test, real property test); or ◾the Commissioner of Taxation uses his discretion to allow you to claim the loss (this rarely happens).
The non-commercial losses limit the ability of taxpayers to offset business losses against other assessment income unless one or more of the following tests are met: ◾assessable income generated by the business is at least $20,000 (assessable income test); ◾the business shows a profit for at least three out of the last five years (profits test); ◾the business has property or an interest in real property with at least $500,000 on a continuing basis (real property test); or ◾the business has at least $100,000 of other assets being used on a continuing basis (other assets test).
Assuming that you satisfied those rules then you can qualify for claiming the loss in your tax return this year. If you have earnt less than $10,000 in other income to offset these losses then you show your taxable income as zero. The remainder of the unutilised losses are carried forward and can be offset against incomes in future years.
It is important that you have been conducting your business activities for the sole purpose of earning income from the buying and selling of investments. Please note that If an Australian Taxation Office (ATO) audit finds that you have incorrectly claimed trading losses and you are unable to satisfactorily show that you are carrying on an investment business, then your deduction will be disallowed and penalties may apply.
If you were an investor, rather than a trader, then these losses would be classified as capital losses which could only be offset against capital gains. They cannot be offset against normal assessable income but If you don’t have any capital gains to ffset them against in this tax year then they can be carried forward indefinitely until used in full."
No I didn't read the link but I knew that traders could claim immediately. The difficulty as I see it is in determining exactly who is investing and who is trading. How many trades do you need to be making to be called a trader.
I did a series of courses at the stock exchange many years ago. Their advice was to write a letter to the ATO and tell them that you consider yourself to be a trader and so expect to be treated accordingly in your tax assessments before you start trading.
I have no idea of whether that would sway them but it might in marginal cases.
Your accountant is only wrong if the ATO deem him to be wrong and that's just a matter of interpretation. In these days of self assessment as long as you don't draw attention to yourself you will be fine. I think that your accountant is much better qualified to make a judgement on your case than anyone here.
Don't lose any sleep over this issue.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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