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Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down. 295 dead including 27 Australians.; Malaysia Airlines plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur shot down by surface-to-air missile
Topic Started: 18 Jul 2014, 08:23 AM (15,170 Views)
We will never know
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newjez
20 Jul 2014, 01:54 PM
Of course, it is possible that the transponder was faulty. If the plane wasn't registering as civilian it would have been a target. There are similarities with this and the other one that went down. Could there have been a related fault that triggered the Russians into firing?
The Ukrainian government has seized the recordings of the conversations between MH-17 and ground flight controllers and is refusing to make them publicly available. The transponder was working fine. Ground control sent 10 planes prior to MH-17 south of disputed zone in Donetsk, but sent MH-17 right over the top of it.

Sounds a lot like KAL007.
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Mike
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lulldapull
20 Jul 2014, 02:18 PM
The Russian supplied rebels dont have access nor the expertise to operate a sophisticated SAm system. All Ukrainian AF aircraft downed in last few weeks were downed by shoulder launched MANPADS or AAA. Effective only up to 4000 ft.

The Ukrainian ADF however is equipped with many batteries of the BUK 9K-37 system.

This incident only benefits the empire and its fascist cronies in Kiev.

Russia or the Russian rebels have nothing to gain from shooting down a passenger airliner.

And FYI, military systems are not equipped to process signals emitted from civilian IFF transponders.
That is why video footage shows 3 BUK (SA-11) missile system plus a radar system moving back across the border into Russia. 1 System had no missiles, meaning 4 had been fired, the 2nd still had all 4 missiles and the 3rd was missing 1 missile.

These systems are clearly manned by the Russian Military as the training required and proficiency to shoot down a plane at 33,000 feet moving at 965km/ph with one shot is high. This was no bunch of farmers or factory workers, it was well trained military personnel. Why move them over the border back to Russia? What could be the possible reason.

The Ukranian transport plane shot down was not downed by a Manpad, it was shot down from 6,000 meters well beyond the capability of Manpads. It was also the victim of SA-11 (Buk).

The SU-25 was apparently shot down by the Russian air force inside Ukraine. It is clear Russia made the decision to provide air defence for the separatist rebels, to prevent the Ukrainian airforce from crushing them.

If it was separatist acting on there own with no support from Moscow, why does Moscow refuse to help. Send a few hundred troops across the border help secure the site. It seem Moscow cannot act to help 300 people lying dead on the ground rotting, but can send weapons and advisors across the border when ever it wants.

Putin wont help or will only do so once the site is sanitised which has likely already occurred, as it will prove Russia shot down the airliner with Russian missile system while illegally inside the Ukraine which will prompt wide ranging sector wide sanctions on Russia which will cripple the economy and send Russian into a deep recession. This is the price for Putins foolish actions.
http://mike-globaleconomy.blogspot.com.au/
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lulldapull
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Now leaving aside juvenile opinions here's what the adults have to say about this incident:

Jul 18, '14

THE ROVING EYE
It was Putin's missile!
By Pepe Escobar

And here's the spin war verdict: the current Malaysia Airlines tragedy - the second in four months - is "terrorism" perpetrated by "pro-Russian separatists", armed by Russia, and Vladimir Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.

Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton said so. Because batshit crazy Samantha "R2P" Power said so - thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the neo-con infested Washington Post. [1]

Because Anglo-American corporate media - from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) - said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

Right off the bat they were all lined up - the invariably hysterical reams of "experts" of the "US intelligence community" literally foaming at their palatial mouths at "evil" Russia and "evil" Putin; intel "experts" who could not identify a convoy of gleaming white Toyotas crossing the Iraqi desert to take Mosul. And yet they have already sentenced they don't need to look any further, instantly solving the MH17 riddle.

It doesn't matter that President Putin has stressed the MH17 tragedy must be investigated objectively. And "objectively" certainly does not mean that fictional "international community" notion construed by Washington - the usual congregation of pliable vassals/patsies.

And what about Carlos?
A simple search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200 kilometers north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days - and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower?

Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared forever.

It won't happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation on why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.

The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational near the MH17's crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing down jets flying at 33,000 ft.

Radiation from a battery's Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17's flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17 was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the "rebels" had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high. For evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag, check here.

And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.

These are some of his crucial tweets:

"The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"
"If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"
"As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"
"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)"
"The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"
"The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)"

Carlos's assessment (a partial compilation of his tweets is collected here http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/ ): the missile was fired by the Ukraine military under orders of the Ministry of Interior - NOT the Ministry of Defense. Security matters at the Ministry of the Interior happen to be under Andriy Parubiy, who was closely working alongside US neo-cons and Banderastan neo-nazis on Maidan.

Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a d?tente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.

So who profits?
The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in Eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.

As for Kiev, they'd have the means, the motive and the window of opportunity to pull it off - especially after Kiev's militias have been effectively routed, and were in retreat, in the Donbass; and this after Kiev remained dead set on attacking and bombing the population of Eastern Ukraine even from above. No wonder the federalists had to defend themselves.

And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously" advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.

Washington, of course, does profit. What the Empire of Chaos gets in this case is a ceasefire (so the disorganized, battered Kiev militias may be resupplied); the branding of Eastern Ukrainians as de facto "terrorists" (as Kiev, Dick Cheney-style, always wanted); and unlimited mud thrown over Russia and Putin in particular until Kingdom Come. Not bad for a few minutes' work. As for NATO, that's Christmas in July.

From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveying/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, where from, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have access to forensic evidence.

Unlike Washington - who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?) - Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington's spin.

The historical record shows Washington simply won't release data if it points to a missile coming from its Kiev vassals. The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17, or mechanical failure - although that's unlikely. If this was a terrible mistake by the Novorossiya rebels, Moscow will have to reluctantly admit it. If Kiev did it, the revelation will be instantaneous. Anyway we already know the hysterical Western response, no matter what; Russia is to blame.

Putin is more than correct when he stressed this tragedy would not have happened if Poroshenko had agreed to extend a cease-fire, as Merkel, Hollande and Putin tried to convince him in late June. At a minimum, Kiev is already guilty because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in the airspace they - theoretically - control.

But all that is already forgotten in the fog of war, tragedy and hype. As for Washington's hysterical claims of credibility, I leave you with just one number: Iran Air 655.

Notes:
1. Missile Downs Malaysia Airlines Plane Over Ukraine Killing 298, Kiew Blames Rebels, Washington Post, July 18, 2014.

Pepe Escobar is the author of Globalistan: How the Globalized World is Dissolving into Liquid War (Nimble Books, 2007), Red Zone Blues: a snapshot of Baghdad during the surge (Nimble Books, 2007), and Obama does Globalistan (Nimble Books, 2009).

He may be reached at pepeasia@yahoo.com.

(Copyright 2014 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
Edited by lulldapull, 20 Jul 2014, 03:37 PM.
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newjez
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The cause of a problem is generally the most likely one.
Whenever you have an argument with someone, there comes a moment where you must ask yourself, whatever your political persuasion, 'am I the Nazi?'
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Count du Monet
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newjez
20 Jul 2014, 04:26 PM
The cause of a problem is generally the most likely one.
You mean something that likely to occur when civilian jets fly through a war zone?

Don't be silly, this is proof Putin has horns growing from his head and is presently eating all the dead babies at the crash site! :lol
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herbie
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Count du Monet
20 Jul 2014, 05:47 PM
You mean something that likely to occur when civilian jets fly through a war zone?
Diverted over Donetsk to avoid thunderstorms that were brewing on the original flight path? :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-changing-course-storms-pilot

And amongst other things, the article says:

"The UK Civil Aviation Authority recently urged UK-based airlines not to fly over a wide area near the Crimea, Black Sea and Sea of Azov, and several airlines, including British Airways, have followed that advice.

Others, however, had been continuing to use the route, which is one of the "aerial motorways" between northern Europe and south Asia. Malaysia Airlines was one of more than a dozen that flew the route on Thursday. Its flight MH17 was only a few miles from an Air India Boeing 787 and a Singapore Airlines 777 when it was shot down. The only restriction placed on the route by the Ukrainian government was that aircraft must remain above 32,000ft."

PS: I find parts of the following article VERY strange:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-crash-we-have-proof-that-russia-participated-in-missile-attack-ukraine-spy-chief-20140720-zuwws.html
Edited by herbie, 20 Jul 2014, 07:28 PM.
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Mike
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herbie
20 Jul 2014, 07:16 PM
Diverted over Donetsk to avoid thunderstorms that were brewing on the original flight path? :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-changing-course-storms-pilot

And amongst other things, the article says:

"The UK Civil Aviation Authority recently urged UK-based airlines not to fly over a wide area near the Crimea, Black Sea and Sea of Azov, and several airlines, including British Airways, have followed that advice.

Others, however, had been continuing to use the route, which is one of the "aerial motorways" between northern Europe and south Asia. Malaysia Airlines was one of more than a dozen that flew the route on Thursday. Its flight MH17 was only a few miles from an Air India Boeing 787 and a Singapore Airlines 777 when it was shot down. The only restriction placed on the route by the Ukrainian government was that aircraft must remain above 32,000ft."

PS: I find parts of the following article VERY strange:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-crash-we-have-proof-that-russia-participated-in-missile-attack-ukraine-spy-chief-20140720-zuwws.html
75% of Airlines still used the flight paths over the Ukraine or Black Sea area despite the warnings.

However the Ukrainian authorities insisted all airlines increase altitude from 26,000 feet to 32,000 feet after the Ukrainian transport was shot down. It was thought the main threat was from manpads but the shoot down of the transport changed that as it occurred at 26,000 feet, meaning a more sophisticated system was being used.

What should have happened is an exclusion zone should have been declared around this area. However Russia would not do this as that would be admission of Russian missile systems inside the Ukraine, leading to massive retaliation in the form of sanctions, which will happen anyway now just 300 people had to die in the process.

So explain to us why you do not think Russia had a part in this. How do Separatist shoot down an airliner at 33,000 feet. You do understand the SA-11 requires a 4 man unit to operate just the missile system and they need to be highly trained, plus co-ordination from a separate radar unit which is also manned.

Why have 3 SA-11 units been filmed moving back across the border from the Ukraine into Russia. Surely Ukrainian forces are not invading Russia, one can only assume it is Russian units returning to Russia. Why move now, to run and hide.

Why did separatist claim to have shoot down a transport plane at the same time the airliner crashed, then suddenly deleted those posts. It is a great victory like the pervious days to shoot down a Ukrainian transport plane...opps.

Sometimes things just happen, it was a mistake but a very embarrassing mistake when Russia is trying to hide and deny its involvement in eastern Ukraine. I understand Putins motive for these actions, however I do not agree with them. Ukraine should be free to choose its own direction not be kept as Russias pawn simply has Russia dreams of past glories of Empire.

Diplomats have often stated that the gate way to the Russian empire lies in the Ukraine, without it there is no Russian Empire. Putin knows this and without the Ukraine Russia can never be a truly great power again. It might also have to do something with 240 out of 280 new nuclear weapons built since 1990 have been built in the Ukraine, another reason why Russia wants them. Ukraine owns much of Russias nuclear expertise in weapons.
http://mike-globaleconomy.blogspot.com.au/
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herbie
20 Jul 2014, 07:16 PM



PS: I find parts of the following article VERY strange:

You expect sanity from the Ukrainians? I wouldn't expect them to be sane at the best of times let alone when the country is struggling with being dirt poor and is falling apart. Obviously the missile that hit the plane came from a launcher that was either Russian or Ukrainian government and most likely Russian. Poorly armed Rebels don't field that sort of ordinance, nor would Russia or any Power in a similar situation arm them with anything heavy. Because that heavy ordinance may come to be used against the very Power that supplied it.

Simple fact is the Ukrainian government is hitting the Pro Russian civilians with airborne ordinance hence the anti-air ordinance for defense.
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miw
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Mike
20 Jul 2014, 08:24 PM
Sometimes things just happen, it was a mistake but a very embarrassing mistake when Russia is trying to hide and deny its involvement in eastern Ukraine. I understand Putins motive for these actions, however I do not agree with them. Ukraine should be free to choose its own direction not be kept as Russias pawn simply has Russia dreams of past glories of Empire.

Diplomats have often stated that the gate way to the Russian empire lies in the Ukraine, without it there is no Russian Empire. Putin knows this and without the Ukraine Russia can never be a truly great power again. It might also have to do something with 240 out of 280 new nuclear weapons built since 1990 have been built in the Ukraine, another reason why Russia wants them. Ukraine owns much of Russias nuclear expertise in weapons.
I'm sure Russia could replace the weapons expertise, but the end game of what was happening before Crimea was the eventual moving of Ukraine under the NATO umbrella.

Shooting down the airliner would seem to have made that more likely than ever, so it counts as an absolutely monumental fuckup. In the meantime, I'd be watching what happens in Moldova.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.
--Gloria Steinem
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herbie
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Mike
20 Jul 2014, 08:24 PM
So explain to us why you do not think Russia had a part in this.
I don't know if Russia had a part in it. And I doubt that you know either.
Mike
20 Jul 2014, 08:24 PM
How do Separatist shoot down an airliner at 33,000 feet. You do understand the SA-11 requires a 4 man unit to operate just the missile system and they need to be highly trained, plus co-ordination from a separate radar unit which is also manned.
By having a BUK thingy - Pinched from defeated Ukrainian forces quite possibly. (It was reported that they got one in late June.) And being able to put together a crew from separatists who'd been trained to operate them either in the Ukraine military or the Russian military. (Some Russians living in Ukraine ... Kind of think of it as being a bit like there could be some Kiwis living in Oz maybe?????) And if on the off chance the separatists had not managed to pinch a separate radar unit (which I'd NOT heard of) then fucking up as to target ID could be very, very likely - Possibly? Although, are you advising me that without the separate unit, the BUK is rendered totally unusable/in-operational???
Mike
20 Jul 2014, 08:24 PM
Why have 3 SA-11 units been filmed moving back across the border from the Ukraine into Russia.
"Back" - Why do you just naturally believe 'BACK into Russia'?

Were they BUKs? Whose were they? Where were they moving? Who told you where they were being moved to? (Or where they'd come from.)

PS: Was there one of those separate radar units you mention amongst them? If not, why not? (Lots of questions in fact - And fuck all good answers from anyone much really - Yet - Including yourself - IMO.)
Edited by herbie, 20 Jul 2014, 09:07 PM.
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