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Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down. 295 dead including 27 Australians.; Malaysia Airlines plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur shot down by surface-to-air missile
Topic Started: 18 Jul 2014, 08:23 AM (15,174 Views)
ThePauk
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Knowing who did it may be worse than not knowing. Just saying....
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Foxy
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Zero is coming...

Dr Watson
18 Jul 2014, 02:50 PM
Remind me, why were Pussy Riot jailed again?
They needed rehabilitation.


Here is the Russian reeducation program video.

Of how to treat riotous pussies.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFMsR02Ggx4

Peter

http://www.afr.com/content/dam/images/g/n/2/1/u/8/image.imgtype.afrArticleInline.620x0.png/1456285515560.png
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zaph
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Dr Watson
18 Jul 2014, 03:41 PM
I don't think you would be jailed for proclaiming "loudly and regularly" that you hate Abbott.
But would, if you were 'loudly and regularly' proclaiming that you hate Joh in the day.
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herbie
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zaph
18 Jul 2014, 04:24 PM
But would, if you were 'loudly and regularly' proclaiming that you hate Joh in the day.
Dear ole Sir Johannes - Recall talking to a dope dealer back in the day 'n the dude opined ta me: "If a cop ever tries to bust me, it'll be common sense to kill him; As I'll most likely only get 15 for murder but a mandatory minimum of 20 for dealing hooch."

Feminism: Recall talking to an ex-Soviet chick one day - She opined "We got 'equal rights' under the constitution back in 1918; But who wants them? I want to have a family and be a mother." (5 yr trained economist she was from recollection?)

There's a lot of things in this world that I just don't naturally have (what I see as good) answers to - And people who just naturally think they do and just naturally want to impose them on others just naturally scare the fuck out of me.
Edited by herbie, 18 Jul 2014, 05:09 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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newjez
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100aids researchers on board, that's going to hurt. Such a loss to research in such a terrible disease.

All seems agreed it was a missile. I can see some rapid replotting of flights.

My nephew is flying back from France soon. Hope he didn't deviate to Amsterdam.
Whenever you have an argument with someone, there comes a moment where you must ask yourself, whatever your political persuasion, 'am I the Nazi?'
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Perthite
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Hopefully my boss was not on that plane.
Just spent 3 weeks there and we can't contact him. He is with 4 other family members.
Edited by Perthite, 18 Jul 2014, 05:31 PM.
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Mike
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Poontang
18 Jul 2014, 03:28 PM
Just heard on the radio that the Russians have the black boxes and are refusing to hand them over to international investigators...
I wonder why that is?

Ukraine has already agreed to an international investigation and will fully co-operate while Russia will not.

Perhaps it is worse then we thought and the missile was fired by Russian advisors, oh else do a bunch of rebels operate a sophisticated air defence system and use it to spot a plane flying at 10,000 metres (33,000 feet).

If Russia has no part in this and nothing to hide hand over the black boxes. The planes crashed in Ukraine, so the only way Russia could get the boxes is if its agents on the ground took it and moved it to Russian territory.

Not a lot of confidence building going on from Putin's camp.
herbie
18 Jul 2014, 04:09 PM
It's not every day that you see a cockup like this Doc.

Finding out what really is going on would be best - IMO.

Attempts by the likes of Mike to smear the Russian establishment would seem to be unhelpful - IMO. When the Ukrainian establishment would not seem to be any fundamentally different/better - IMO.

And I don't personally feel that as 'the enlightened West' it is our job to just jump in anywhere and everywhere there is a bunfight going down to insist that they start thinking like we do/seeing things our way anyway.

Which is what we do if there is oil or gas involved - But just pretty much don't seem to give a fuck otherwise ...
Really, I don't see the Ukrainian government arming rebels inside Russia with advanced heavy weapons such as T-72 tanks, Grad Surface to Surface missiles, Artillery and now advanced Surface to Air Missile Systems.

Seems are rather well equipped and trained bunch of rebels that should find it hard to clean a simple assault machine gun let alone operate advanced military hardware that normally takes years of training to operate effectively.

Can you explain that?

The logical answer is the Rebels have been and still are mostly Russian military forces operating as Rebels or Militia groups, hence the supply of heavy weapons from Russia to its soldiers inside Ukraine as they know how to use the equipment. Far from a bunch of civilians who are disgruntled at the pro-western Government in Kiev who should find it hard to aim straight let alone shoot down an airliner at 33,000 feet.
Just to add some perspective to what these rebels are doing and how well they are doing it.

Look at the current conflict in Gaza or Lebanon. Hamas with all of its experience and supply of weapons from Iran is unable to shoot down a single Israeli warplane. Why cannot Hamas operate an advanced surface to air missile system, they have decades of experience fighting Isreal.

Or lets take Hezbollah, far more powerful then Hamas, yet that are not capable of operating the same weapons systems a bunch of rag tag Pro-Russian rebels can operate despite decades of battlefield experience. Seems these Pro-Russian militants find advanced weapons at every local store and instantly know how to use them very effectively, why is that.

Granted Israeli air force is far more competent then Ukraine's but you would think Hamas or Hezbollah would get lucky after all of these years, nope. Pro-Russian rebels shoot down 3 planes in 3 days with advanced air defences missiles and the know how to use them. Not bad for a bunch of farmers or factory hands.

Edited by Mike, 18 Jul 2014, 06:47 PM.
http://mike-globaleconomy.blogspot.com.au/
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herbie
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Mike
18 Jul 2014, 06:34 PM
I wonder why that is?

Ukraine has already agreed to an international investigation and will fully co-operate while Russia will not.

Perhaps it is worse then we thought and the missile was fired by Russian advisors, oh else do a bunch of rebels operate a sophisticated air defence system and use it to spot a plane flying at 10,000 metres (33,000 feet).

If Russia has no part in this and nothing to hide hand over the black boxes. The planes crashed in Ukraine, so the only way Russia could get the boxes is if its agents on the ground took it and moved it to Russian territory.

Not a lot of confidence building going on from Putin's camp.

Really, I don't see the Ukrainian government arming rebels inside Russia with advanced heavy weapons such as T-72 tanks, Grad Surface to Surface missiles, Artillery and now advanced Surface to Air Missile Systems.

Seems are rather well equipped and trained bunch of rebels that should find it hard to clean a simple assault machine gun let alone operate advanced military hardware that normally takes years of training to operate effectively.

Can you explain that?

The logical answer is the Rebels have been and still are mostly Russian military forces operating as Rebels or Militia groups, hence the supply of heavy weapons from Russia to its soldiers inside Ukraine as they know how to use the equipment. Far from a bunch of civilians who are disgruntled at the pro-western Government in Kiev who should find it hard to aim straight let alone shoot down an airliner at 33,000 feet.
This seems about as reasonable a report on it I've read to date:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/malaysia-airlines-mh17-australian-expert-questions-flights-ukraine-route-20140718-zuilw.html

It implicates Russian 'fifth columnists'. (But if Igor is the most impressive example of a fifth columnist you can come up with, I'd still like you to try to do rather better please ...)

Anyway, my understanding was/is that the separatists had two tanks they'd somehow got across the border from Russia - maybe? Plus arms they'd pinched from defeated loyalist Ukrainian troops - Including one bad arse system that could knock down a plane flying at 10,000 m - Which is part of the reason I lean very strongly towards thinking it was the separatists that took out MH17. (Inexperienced in the use of the system. A cockup.)

The black box - Of course it's going to 'spirited' over the border to 'Mother Russia' by the separatists - You aren't silly enough to expect anything else surely?
And you surely aren't thick enough to think the Russians won't take their own sweet time taking a jolly good look at it before handing it back surely?

PS: Has the thought ever crossed your mind Mike, that the world seemed to be a better place when we (the West) only ruled half of it? And the communists ruled the other half? For those in the West anyway. And just maybe the majority of those on the communist side - Except for when it wasn't. Though living without 'freedom' has been portrayed to me as a right bitch - By some ... Funny ole world.
Edited by herbie, 18 Jul 2014, 07:45 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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stinkbug
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Perthite
18 Jul 2014, 05:29 PM
Hopefully my boss was not on that plane.
Just spent 3 weeks there and we can't contact him. He is with 4 other family members.
Shit. I hope he's all right.
---------------------------------------------------------------

While it's true that those who win never quit, and those who quit never win, those who never win and never quit are idiots.

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Veritas
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stinkbug
18 Jul 2014, 07:21 PM
Shit. I hope he's all right.
Hopefully, you don't mean this guy

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/malaysia-air-mh17-perth-man-nick-norris-grandchildren-on-board-20140718-zudnt.html

Property acquisition as a topic was almost a national obsession. You couldn't even call it speculation as the buyers all presumed the price of property could only go up. That’s why we use the word obsession. Ordinary people were buying properties for their young children who had not even left school assuming they would not be able to afford property of their own when they left college- Klaus Regling on Ireland. Sound familiar?

The evidence of nearly 40 cycles in house prices for 17 OECD economies since 1970 shows that real house prices typically give up about 70 per cent of their rise in the subsequent fall, and that these falls occur slowly.
Morgan Kelly:On the Likely Extent of Falls in Irish House Prices, 2007
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