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Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down. 295 dead including 27 Australians.; Malaysia Airlines plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur shot down by surface-to-air missile
Topic Started: 18 Jul 2014, 08:23 AM (15,160 Views)
Ex BP Golly
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23 Jul 2014, 06:10 PM
Abbott just mentioned in his speech that the bodies are in the fields open to exposure of wild animals.....

Scare mongering. Trying to milk this tragic accident for his own political gain (poll bounce)
Abbott as a leader is probably gloating about his prowess to get a resolution, while the Malaysian leader has actually pulled off some impressive diplomacy.

We have someone on standby or something, Malaysia has already recovered many of the remains and the black boxes.

Lets hope Abbott never has to be tested in the same way as Prime Minister Razak.

BTW- Bill Shorten is an idiot too.
Mike
23 Jul 2014, 06:39 PM
I guess the video footage showing bodies being looted by the rebels was also bad reporting rather then telling the truth as it is.
Yes, it is bloody horrible Mike.

There would even be people in our community who would behave like this, even if they weren't in the conditions of austerity that is enforced upon civilian populations in warzones.

But their appears to be many hundreds scouring the fields and treating the remains with as much dignity as can be managed in the ccircumstances.

What is your point exactly?
Edited by Ex BP Golly, 23 Jul 2014, 07:22 PM.
WHAT WOULD EDDIE DO? MAAAATE!
Share a cot with Milton?
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herbie
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Mike
23 Jul 2014, 06:51 PM
http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-lay-out-case-against-russians-1406063846

I think you bunch of clowns should join Putins propaganda machine.
If I ever feel inclined to be even more fully informed by you on all the whys and wherefores of just how come Putin is Hitler reincarnate and Russia in 2014 is Germany in 1938, I'll continue to bear in mind that I can always pop over to your site 'n have a chat ta Mike ...
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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Mike
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herbie
23 Jul 2014, 07:24 PM
If I ever feel inclined to be even more fully informed by you on all the whys and wherefores of just how come Putin is Hitler reincarnate and Russia in 2014 is Germany in 1938, I'll continue to bear in mind that I can always pop over to your site 'n have a chat ta Mike ...
Listen to me next time, everything I said turns out to be true. Pro-Russoam separatists just admitted to it, no doubt under pressure from Moscow. I predicted that would happen days ago.

Meanwhile all the rubbish you Anti-American conspiracy whack jobs post as turned out to be utter lies, who would have thought.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-24/mh17-ukraine-rebel-commander-acknowledges-fighters-had-buk/5619520

MH17: Pro-Russian separatist commander acknowledges fighters had Buk missile launcher


A powerful pro-Russian separatist leader has confirmed that rebels had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, and it could have originated in Russia.

Ukrainian Alexander Khodakovsky, the commander of the Vostok Battalion, has acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the Buk missile system.

He said it may have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the Buk missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height.

But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.

Since the airliner crashed with the loss of all 298 on board, the most contentious issue has been who fired the missile that brought the jet down in an area where government forces are fighting pro-Russian separatists.


The international aviation industry is frantically trying to decide if MH17 was a tragic one-off, or a game-changer that will lead to to a radical restructure of air travel.
Mr Khodakovsky blamed the Kiev authorities for provoking what may have been the missile strike that destroyed the doomed airliner, saying Kiev had deliberately launched air strikes in the area, knowing the missiles were in place.

"I knew that a Buk came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a Buk from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People's Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk - the province where the crash took place.

"That Buk I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence."

"The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology, through the fault of Russia. It not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians," he said.

"They knew that this Buk existed, that the Buk was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 kilometres west of the crash site.

"They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this Buk by starting an air strike on a target they didn't need, that their planes hadn't touched for a week.

"And that day, they were intensively flying, and exactly at the moment of the shooting, at the moment the civilian plane flew overhead, they launched air strikes. Even if there was a Buk, and even if the Buk was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down."

US intelligence suggests MH17 downed by accident

Washington believes that pro-Russian separatists most likely shot down the airliner "by mistake," not realising it was a civilian passenger flight, US intelligence officials say.

The officials said the "most plausible explanation" for the destruction of the plane was that the separatists fired a Russian-made SA-11 - a type of Buk - missile at it after mistaking it for another kind of aircraft.

US president Barack Obama's administration has said it is convinced the airliner was brought down by an SA-11 ground-to-air missile fired from territory in eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists.

I want a Buk, and if someone offered me one, I wouldn't turn it down. But I wouldn't use it against something that did not threaten me. I would use it only under circumstances when there was an air attack on my positions, to protect people's lives.
Rebel leader Alexander Khodakovsky
Other separatist leaders have said they did not bring the Malaysian plane down. Russia has denied involvement.

Mr Khodakovsky is a former head of the "Alpha" anti-terrorism unit of the security service in Donetsk, and one of the few major rebel commanders in Donetsk who actually hails from Ukraine rather than Russia.

There has been friction in the past between him and rebel leaders from outside the region, such as Igor Strelkov, the Muscovite who has declared himself commander of all rebel forces in Donetsk province.

Mr Khodakovsky said his unit had never possessed Buks, but they may have been used by rebels from other units.

"The fact is, this is a theatre of military activity occupied by our, let's say, partners in the rebel movement, with which our cooperation is somewhat conditional," he said.

"What resources our partners have, we cannot be entirely certain. Was there [a Buk]? Wasn't there? If there was proof that there was, then there can be no question."

'I want a Buk': Khodakovsky

Mr Khodakovsky said it was widely known that rebels had obtained Buks from Ukrainian forces in the past, including three captured at a checkpoint in April and another captured near the airport in Donetsk. He said none of the Buks captured from Ukrainian forces were operational.

"I'm not going to say Russia gave these things or didn't give them. Russia could have offered this Buk under some entirely local initiative," he said.

"I want a Buk, and if someone offered me one, I wouldn't turn it down. But I wouldn't use it against something that did not threaten me. I would use it only under circumstances when there was an air attack on my positions, to protect people's lives."

He added: "I am an interested party. I am a 'terrorist', a 'separatist', a volunteer ... in any event, I am required to promote the side I represent, even if I might think otherwise, say otherwise or have an alternative view. This causes real discomfort to my soul."



http://mike-globaleconomy.blogspot.com.au/
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Vodka
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Yesterday the Western press declared that Russia’s billionaire’s were in a panic about their wealth, thereby implying that sanctions are an effective form of negotiation with the Great Bear. Russia’s richest businessmen – I have met some of these people and numerous numbers of their underlings, and there is not (with the arguable possible exception of Anatoly Chubais) anything about any of them which makes them worthy in any way of being Russia’s richest businessmen – apart from the fact that they have shown themselves better at killing, embezzling, bribing or extorting access to revenue generating assets in Russia than others . The people of Russia know this. Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin (VVP) knows this. They (and their families) know this.

The people of Russia and VVP also know that the only way any of them make any money whatsoever is by extracting natural resources (start with oil gas coal and iron ore) and selling it to whoever is buying. Unlike Australia, for Russian producers of many of these commodities it is often the case that the state (in one of its many guises) is the buyer, or that the need to do something with the resource in question reflects a strategic goal of some sort – so that effectively the revenues generated by Russia’s richest come from the state.

The state makes its money by taxing (effectively a RSPT) oil and gas exports. 80% of Russia’s exports by value are oil or gas exports, Russia’s budget runs off oil and gas revenues (and it is largely for this reason that crushing the Russian rouble doesnt affect Russia much because the budget just goes further into surplus and the state spends more – the budget reflecting dollar denominated revenues). The state (and VVP) knows that the only thing that Russia does which really counts in the rest of the world is export oil and gas. The state and VVP knows that the only way the rest of the world is really going to squeeze Russia by the nads is to squeeze the oil and gas price by the nads. The state and VVP knows the rest of the world is most unlikely to go there.

That brings me back to Russia’s richest. A very surprising number of them have their families outside of Russia, or are able to exit Russia at very short notice. They have estates in the UK, Castles in Germany, Greek Islands, you name it. They have their daughters in English and American schools (indeed a very nice little side earner for me in Russia was tutoring their progeny to slip into English language schools), and set up foreign based subsidiaries into which they can slip friends, family and anyone else they think they can, into a situation where they have a plausible case for having a foreign visa or passport.

Their first great fear is that they will be exposed by Putin for having done something regrettable in the cold light of day in the pursuit of their fortunes – this is a very real fear for they have all done something regrettable in the cold light of day in the pursuit of their fortunes.

Their other great fear is that they may have their entre to the world of Chateaux, Estates, Football Club boards, Davos, elite shows, Yachts, Monte Carlo, the French riviera, London, New York, Miami, or global capital markets, banks, investment opportunities etc in any way restricted.

Their fears, as applied to the events unfolding in Eastern Ukraine, have two basic faces.

The first is that having seen the particularly feeble financial sanctions currently in place to deal with Russia (last weeks being a classic example) someone somewhere may get the idea that there is some merit in restricting the access of all entities Russian in such a way. That maybe that short term funding restriction which came out for Novatek (owned and run by close mates of VVP and utterly unaffected by the sanction) last week might be applied to Rusal (Oleg Deripaska) or Severstal (Alexei Mordashev) or NLMK (Vladimir Lissin) or the Alfa Group, for whom it would have significantly greater downside implications, or the host of much smaller entities who borrow heavily on international markets against assets in Russia. Then that same terror in a different guise would be that maybe someone somewhere in power in the UK or US or EU would say that these uber rich Russians are every bit as much a part of the problem as VVP and decide to ask them to leave or not bring families selves or whatever out of Russia to domicile outside of Russia – tells them that their arts bequests arent wanted, that they cant own football and basketball teams, and, most importantly, that they cannot buy businesses (newspapers, industrial production assets, resorts etc) – that they become persona non grata. My personal opinion is that until the rest of the world does this then it is not a hope in hell of dealing with Russia, and is not serious about doing so.

That side of their fears needs be balanced against the other side of their fear. The other side of their fear is that they may be deprived of access to the revenues of the business they ‘own’ in Russia and the processes by which these businesses make money.

It is highly unlikely that in a dispute with the rest of the world about who has done what in Ukraine and who is to blame VVP will try and ping one of his oligarchs. But you could bet your bottom dollar that were one of them to come out with any sort of comment in public to the effect that Russia has done something wrong (or, god forbid, that VVP has) then it would be a moments thought to wonder if there should be some sort of investigation into a company about some sort of dubious practice and trace this back to the oligarch in question (in an environment where every company will have done/be doing something dodgy and where every oligarch will be a beneficiary of this).

Events as they are panning out at the moment threaten to open up that divide – between wanting to be able to flaunt wealth outside Russia and having access to it inside Russia, and probably their biggest fear is that may need to make a choice.

Russia will not become another Belarus. Belarus doesn’t have the oil and gas. Russia does. Russians know it, VVP knows it, the rest of the world knows it too.

In other parts of the world you could conceivably see a pro-business lobby espouse a political candidate. They couldnt do that in Russia because everyone inside Russia would only see it as code for selling out Russia’s assets to the rest of the world – and that is the card VVP would play at the drop of a hat. Anyone being seen not to toe the Kremlin line could easily give rise to some sort of inquiry into how they got their assets.

Small fry might bitch and moan about things, but they wont shake the tree. The major oligarchs will stick rock solid with Putin – when a business risk comes it will come from one of them who isnt as obvious, and my guess is it will most likely come when he looks like dropping off the twig, or after he hands over to someone (as he did with Medvedev).

None of the above should in any way be construed to suggest that VVP hasnt made himself fantastically wealthy in the process of running Russia or that he is any less brutal, corrupt or otherwise working the system to suit himself financially than any of the oligarchs.

But all the sanctions against Russia in the world is not going to help Ukraine, which has a far worse oligarch problem than Russia, and the activities of the Ukraine oligarchs simply make Putin more popular in Russia for what he has done to their Russian counterparts (taking them out of politics).
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Barista
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Something to remember in all this is that this isn't the first barney involving the Ukrainians and Russians.

Basically any event in Ukraine or Russia will see loads of photographs, recorded phone calls, radar trackings and what have you of who was doing what at that time.

All seem to get released with a view to painting the other as a pack of imbeciles one way or another. – the best recent example was in the maiden protest in Jan – Feb when someone eventually ordered snipers to start taking out protestors.

The initial assumption was that this was someone from the Yanukovich admin and the international media fell into that line. But subsequently a lot of pertinent questions were asked about whether organisations associated with the protest had in fact been party to sending people up to shoot people (ostensibly with a view to inflaming public and international opinion).

None of this is to say the Ukrainians shot down the MH17. My current guess (and I was chatting on this subject with a British journalist last night) is that it is a coq up, it seems (given the slowness of the Russian reaction) that it is on the Russian side (so either involving Russians or pro Russian Eastern Ukrainians). For mine it leads to a question of if it was a pro Russian Ukrainian ‘rebel’ using captured Ukrainian kit, or even using Russian supplied kit – in which case I would guess that the individual will be taken out and reamed and then maybe coughed up to assuage international opinion – or if it was an actual serving member of the Russian military (as the Ukrainians seem to be trying to suggest it was) – in which case the individual would almost certainly not be coughed up [but would still get reamed].

What I don't get is how it is that anyone ostensibly preparing to deal with localised airborne threats would think it in their interest to ping something at
10000 metres plus. There will be a reason why they thought so, and targetted the aircraft. Maybe someone somewhere hasn't understood the technology (a rebel unfamiliar with it possibly).

But bear in mind that both sides are out to portray the other as a pack of pricks.
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Dr Watson
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Barista
24 Jul 2014, 09:34 AM
But bear in mind that both sides are out to portray the other as a pack of pricks.
Yes James, they are.
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt — Bertrand Russell
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herbie
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Mike
24 Jul 2014, 09:27 AM
Listen to me next time ...
Have a read of Barista's most recent comment Mike. My thoughts on this to date, have been and remain essentially the same as what he is saying there. Including the fact that I reckoned as early as page 2 of this thread that it was a cockup by the separatists - Which is something you want to berate me for denying apparently? When I've consistently leaned towards that conclusion right from the start anyway.

PS: I'm about as (un)likely to listen to you on this issue Mike, as I am (un)likely to listen to Pravda 'news' reports on it.

Barista
24 Jul 2014, 09:34 AM
... What I don't get ...
And one thing that I also don't get is how any 'side' in this really figures it's in their long term international best interests to tell fibs about it. Given the high degree of broad international interest in it; And the fact that common sense would seem to indicate to me that there must already be plenty of 'hard' evidence; And that I'd assume much more such 'hard' evidence will become available when the crash site is investigated and such evidence analysed.
Edited by herbie, 24 Jul 2014, 11:02 AM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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Admin
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Quote:
 
MH17: Vladimir Putin will lose Ukraine through stupidity

July 24, 2014 - 12:15AM
Paul Sheehan

The mind-boggling stupidity of the armed masked men at the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines plane, and their blatantly lying superiors, has changed the equation in Ukraine and Europe. The murder of 298 civilians by Russian-backed criminals is creating positives out of a disastrous negative.

Those positives can prove significant. So significant that, after the criminal investigation of the destruction of flight MH17 is completed, Russia can lose its right to host the 2018 football World Cup.

Not all sanctions involve trade. Shunning has its place. During the World Cup final in Rio de Janeiro, Russian President Vladimir Putin sat next to the President of Brazil and the president of FIFA. If Russia is found to have sponsored terrorism, then sought to cover up a mass murder, many nations will not want to see Russia and Putin rewarded with the world’s most-watched sporting event.

The imperial meddling of Putin will be tainted for years to come by this incident. Ukrainians have been galvanised. They have witnessed the murder of innocents, the appalling conduct of separatists at the crash scene and the implausible denials by Russian puppets, notably Alexander Borodai, the self-styled prime minister of the Donetsk people's republic. Faced with overwhelming evidence of self-incrimination, Borodai said: “It is very simple to disprove it. All of the information that comes through the internet is practically all lies.”

This tactic of brazen blanket denial actually works in Russia, where the state media has been whitewashing reality and shunting blame onto the Ukrainian government. Putin remains popular as a Russian nationalist standing up to the West.

The rest of the world has had its eyes opened about the reality of the separatist movement in Ukraine. Many of the armed so-called rebels are actually local criminals. Others are Russians who have been paid to fight in Ukraine. The use of heavy arms inside Ukraine, just months after an orderly presidential election produced a clear winner, has alarmed most residents in the Russian-speaking eastern provinces on whose behalf the manufactured insurrection is taking place.

The fingerprints of Vladimir Putin are all over this.

Based on the events of the past week, Russia would be fortunate to harvest a small rump of Ukraine. The rest of the country, most of it, would reject Russia. And Putin would have lost Ukraine.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/mh17-vladimir-putin-will-lose-ukraine-through-stupidity-20140723-zw1bb.html
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herbie
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Alex Barton
24 Jul 2014, 11:32 AM
I personally concur with Sheehan's conclusion:

"On Monday I suggested Ukraine should hold a plebiscite on separation, to allow the country to shed Russian influence by allowing any region contiguous with Russia to vote to return to Russia if it wished. A plebiscite would be an aggressive form of democracy. It would call Putin’s bluff."

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/mh17-vladimir-putin-will-lose-ukraine-through-stupidity-20140723-zw1bb.html#ixzz38LHyloFx

Though let any such plebiscites take place after the MH17 investigation is my initial thought at this time.
Edited by herbie, 24 Jul 2014, 11:55 AM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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Count du Monet
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Quote:
 
The mind-boggling stupidity of the armed masked men at the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines plane, and their blatantly lying superiors, has changed the equation in Ukraine and Europe. The murder of 298 civilians by Russian-backed criminals is creating positives out of a disastrous negative.


Tis only "murder" when done intentionally under Anglo-Saxon law. In fact the inclusion of "intent" from Germanic traditional custom is one the great additions to human reason. Because philosophically it can be difficult to determine what the true material facts are in sequence. Where as "intent" is something immediately understood in the human mental medium.

Sorry, when are armed rebels expert cash site investigators as well? It's inhuman there wasn't a five star nearby in rural Ukraine as well.

This is just a symptom of the mind boggling stupidity of today's Western media. They think the entire planet is some sort children's playground where nothing untoward should ever happen?
The next trick of our glorious banks will be to charge us a fee for using net bank!!!
You are no longer customer, you are property!!!

Don't be SAUCY with me Bernaisse
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