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Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down. 295 dead including 27 Australians.; Malaysia Airlines plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur shot down by surface-to-air missile
Topic Started: 18 Jul 2014, 08:23 AM (15,164 Views)
herbie
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Dr Watson
22 Jul 2014, 09:13 AM
I think it's safe to say, Herbs, that however broad the terms of reference might be, they won't include the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
And neither should they Doc - IMO.
Mallard
22 Jul 2014, 04:29 AM
The bodies are rotting in the fields.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-crash-ukrainian-rebels-agree-to-transport-bodies-on-train-of-death-and-release-airliners-black-boxes-20140721-3cbl9.html

Mallard
22 Jul 2014, 04:29 AM
If this was not the work of Russia and the separatists they would be welcoming investigators in.
It's curious the assumptions people make.

One of these people (who were quite literally "on the ground" where and when it happened) is quoted as stating (amongst other things) :

"Everyone here believed it was a Ukraine fighter jet that shot the airline down. Who knows."

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-inside-ukraines-village-of-the-dead-and-the-tragic-tale-of-body-number-26/story-fnizu68q-1226995985631


Edited by herbie, 22 Jul 2014, 10:31 AM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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Mike
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herbie
21 Jul 2014, 11:29 PM
In all the comments you've put up on this to date Mike, you've included two links.

Plenty of statements of 'fact' - But eff all supporting evidence.

Might that be because your mind is already made up?

Just asking, but you don't happen to know what Holodomor is by ANY chance do you Mike?????
Do I really need to provide links when a quick google search provides thousands of links for you to read, go do it.

All evidence is circumstantial in most cases, just it a lot of circumstantial evidence in this case.

Russian missile systems photographed and videoed moving back into Russia.
Communication intercept from rebels boasting of shooting down the plane.
Posts on the internet claiming to have shot the plane down, later deleted.
Intercepts of rebels talking to a Russian intelligence officer about the shooting, the officer provided advice to remove the black boxes, why?
US says Russia sent 150 vehicles across the border in the weeks and days leading up to the attack, yet Russian denies sending them. Why are so many Russian tanks, missile systems seen operated by the rebels. How do rebels get an instant well equipped and trained army. I'm sure some have former military training, hardly enough though.
Ofcourse Russia is supporting the Rebels with its own forces, it has been going on for months. This is the price Russia pays. International and economic isolation for years to come.

Hopefully the black boxes have not been tampered with as the rebels did first stated 3 days ago they sent the black boxes to Moscow.

Also the US confirms via its satellite data and radar it was a ground launched missile that hit the plane, not an air borne missile launch. You can either believe it or not.

http://mike-globaleconomy.blogspot.com.au/
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Strindberg
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http://www.dailypaul.com/322780/ron-pauls-texas-straight-talk-7-21-14-what-the-media-won-t-report-about-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17
Quote:
 
What the Media Won’t Report About Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17

Just days after the tragic crash of a Malaysian Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine, Western politicians and media joined together to gain the maximum propaganda value from the disaster. It had to be Russia; it had to be Putin, they said. President Obama held a press conference to claim – even before an investigation – that it was pro-Russian rebels in the region who were responsible. His ambassador to the UN, Samantha Power, did the same at the UN Security Council – just one day after the crash!

While western media outlets rush to repeat government propaganda on the event, there are a few things they will not report.

They will not report that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when the EU and US overthrew the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych. Without US-sponsored “regime change,” it is unlikely that hundreds would have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would the Malaysian Airlines crash have happened.

The media has reported that the plane must have been shot down by Russian forces or Russian-backed separatists, because the missile that reportedly brought down the plane was Russian made. But they will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons.

They will not report that the post-coup government in Kiev has, according to OSCE monitors, killed 250 people in the breakaway Lugansk region since June, including 20 killed as government forces bombed the city center the day after the plane crash! Most of these are civilians and together they roughly equal the number killed in the plane crash. By contrast, Russia has killed no one in Ukraine, and the separatists have struck largely military, not civilian, targets.

They will not report that the US has strongly backed the Ukrainian government in these attacks on civilians, which a State Department spokeswoman called “measured and moderate.”

They will not report that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians.

They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack.

They will not report that the missile that apparently shot down the plane was from a sophisticated surface-to-air missile system that requires a good deal of training that the separatists do not have.

They will not report that the separatists in eastern Ukraine have inflicted considerable losses on the Ukrainian government in the week before the plane was downed.

They will not report how similar this is to last summer’s US claim that the Assad government in Syria had used poison gas against civilians in Ghouta. Assad was also gaining the upper hand in his struggle with US-backed rebels and the US claimed that the attack came from Syrian government positions. Then, US claims led us to the brink of another war in the Middle East. At the last minute public opposition forced Obama to back down – and we have learned since then that US claims about the gas attack were false.

Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. The real point is, it's very difficult to get accurate information so everybody engages in propaganda. At this point it would be unwise to say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it. Is it so hard to simply demand a real investigation?

Edited by Strindberg, 22 Jul 2014, 11:11 AM.
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herbie
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Mike
22 Jul 2014, 10:56 AM
Also the US confirms via its satellite data and radar it was a ground launched missile that hit the plane, not an air borne missile launch. You can either believe it or not.
I stated rather early in this thread that I lean towards the theory it was a ground launched missile. And I have no particular reason/s to change my leanings on that at this time.

Though based (in part at least) on the statement "Everyone here believed it was a Ukraine fighter jet that shot the airline down. Who knows." you might wish to consider changing some of the leanings in your thoughts on the situation in Donetsk generally?

A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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Mike
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herbie
22 Jul 2014, 11:08 AM
I stated rather early in this thread that I lean towards the theory it was a ground launched missile. And I have no particular reason/s to change my leanings on that at this time.

Though based (in part at least) on the statement "Everyone here believed it was a Ukraine fighter jet that shot the airline down. Who knows." you might wish to consider changing some of the leanings in your thoughts on the situation in Donetsk generally?
Quote:
 
'Wake-up call'

Mr Kerry said the US had seen major military supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a convoy of armoured personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers.

Intercepted calls suggested a Russian SA-11 missile system - also known as BUK - had been transferred to the rebels, Mr Kerry said, and the US had seen a video of a launcher being moved back into Russia after flight MH17 crashed.

"There's [an] enormous amount of evidence that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them," Mr Kerry said on a US TV network.

He also threatened further sanctions on Russia and called on European allies to get tougher with President Putin after the "wake-up call".

On Sunday, UK Prime Minister David Cameron said Europe and the West "must fundamentally change our approach to Russia" if Mr Putin "does not change his approach to Ukraine".


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28396862

I have read the reports you talk about, it was an old lady who thought it was a Ukrainian plane, hardly evidence. I guess they have super eye vision spotting an air battle at 33,000 feet from the ground. Even better to spot it was a Ukrainian plane from 10km away on the ground. With eyes like that who needs radar.

Use some common sense.

Granted, Ukraine also fields the Buk missile system, however the area the missile was fired from was controlled by Pro-Russian separatists and still is, this is why bodies have been rotting in the field for 3 days and only recently collected. US radar and satellite confirms it was fired from an exact location. This is not science fiction, this capability has been around for decades to detect missile launches, this is how they detect a nuclear missile launch globally, it is so sensitive it also picks up house fires. Do you honestly think with the attention focused on Ukraine they would not have radar and satellites trained of this location spotting Russian military movements. It how NATO knows where Russian forces are and where they are massing.

Yes, I have made up my mind as I understand what Putin is trying to do. I understand why he is doing it. He has limited window to try and change Russia long term strategic decline which is rapidly closing. I do not agree with his actions but completely understand why he is doing it. A much larger game is being played, just Putin is holding a losing hand at present. If he wants to pull an ace out of the pack then he needs to massively intervene with the Russian Military. In the end though the result will be the same, just more people will die to reach it. Russia's terminal decline is almost guaranteed. Russias needs the Ukraine as part of the Russian federation to be a global power and stave off its decline. Putin knows this and why what has happened is happening. The West also knows this and will do everything they can to prevent it. Ukraine certainly does not want another century under Russian domination, it did not turn out to well for them the first time.

The question is how high a price is Putin willing to pay, my bet is at some point he goes all in otherwise he loses and that means a very large war indeed. I doubt Putin will accept the West wining the Ukraine, he cant it means his political career is over, it means Russia's dream of rising again is dead and buried. Putin will not accept this, but he needs to play his hand smarter in the next round for the battle of Ukraine. So far Obama has out foxed him and applying huge losses to Russia without the US firing one bullet.
Edited by Mike, 22 Jul 2014, 11:31 AM.
http://mike-globaleconomy.blogspot.com.au/
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herbie
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Mike
22 Jul 2014, 11:30 AM
I have read the reports you talk about ...
"reports that (I) talk about" - But I've not read any such reports to talk about them Mike?

I simply put up a report containing information from the ground at the time, which could certainly be seen to suggest that some of your thoughts on the overall situation in Donetsk are simply not accurate.
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Mike
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http://online.wsj.com/articles/bret-stephens-seeing-putin-plain-1405983144?mod=rss_opinion_main

Quote:
 
Seeing Putin Plain

Russia revealed its real face long before Flight 17.

In the fall of 2007 I participated in a debate in New York on the question of whether Russia was again becoming an enemy of the United States. I argued it was.

"We worry about political trends within Russia," I said in my closing statement, "not just because we are friends of democracy, human rights, freedom, the rule of law, but also because the respect that governments have for their own people tend to correlate with their attitude and behavior vis-à-vis the outside world. We worry about Russian behavior toward countries like Ukraine, Estonia and Georgia because we fear that behavior is a harbinger for what's in store for Europe and the United States."

If you think I'm claiming vindication here, you would be right. But it wasn't as if it took great political acumen to come to such conclusions.

Vladimir Putin's first major act in power had been to lay waste to the city of Grozny in a manner reminiscent of Tamerlane. Next he went after his domestic opponents in show trials that recalled the methods of Andrey Vyshinsky. Soon he linked hands with Jacques Chirac of France and Gerhard Schröder of Germany to try to stop the Iraq war—which is to say, to keep Saddam Hussein in power. Then he supplied Iran with its first nuclear reactor.

In 2005 Mr. Putin called the collapse of the Soviet Union "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of the 20th century. In 2006 a mysterious pipeline explosion left Georgia without gas in the dead of winter, a tactic used against several of Russia's neighbors. Later that year came the murders of Anna Politkovskaya, a muckraking journalist, and Alexander Litvinenko, a Russian intelligence officer who had defected to Britain and was dispatched with a dose of polonium. A few months later Estonia, another free-world thorn in Russia's side, was subjected to a massive cyberattack.

This is only a partial list of the evidence available at the time of the debate. But it suggested a definite trend. The invasions of Georgia, Crimea and eastern Ukraine still lay in the future. So did the murder of Sergei Magnitsky, the prison sentences for Pussy Riot, the legal harassment of Alexei Navalny, the asylum granted to Ed Snowden, the cheating on the IMF Treaty.

And now the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines 3786.KU 0.00% Flight 17 and the murder of its 298 passengers and crew, followed by the coverup. How do you "reset" that?

You don't. You can't. But you can at least try to figure out where you went wrong at the start.

Take Columbia University professor and Russia expert Robert Levgold, who took the opposite side in that 2007 debate. Russia, he argued, was not an enemy but "a challenge." The problem of Russian foreign policy wasn't so much its aggressive efforts to reconstitute the old Soviet sphere of influence, but rather its "ambiguity and shapelessness." U.S. policy should focus on "constructive and effective dialogue."

In a Foreign Affairs article in 2009, Mr. Levgold went a step further: "Too many Americans," he cautioned, "mistakenly believe that Russia's leaders are incorrigibly antidemocratic and bent on bludgeoning Russia's neighbors, blackmailing Europeans, and causing trouble for the United States." It was important, he added, to change the tone. "If the style and substance of Obama's foreign policy change as much as he and his team have suggested they will, the context for U.S. policy toward Russia will improve no matter what happens on the specific issues that set the two countries at odds."

By and large, the professor got exactly the policy he wanted. Yet the results were precisely the opposite of the ones he forecast.

U.S.-Russia relations were strained at the time of the debate. They are in shambles today. Mr. Obama's good will did not beget conciliation from Mr. Putin. It elicited contempt. A more cautious and less unilateral U.S. foreign policy did not turn Russia into a team player at the U.N. Security Council. It merely facilitated Russian obstructionism. Consistent attempts to de-escalate tensions over Ukraine, to offer Mr. Putin this or that off-ramp, did not induce better behavior. It signaled that the West lacked any will to stand in Russia's way.

There was no White House outrage when Russian separatists were shooting down Ukrainian aircraft in recent weeks. On the contrary, Mr. Obama was trying to ring-fence events in the region as "a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing," as somebody once said.

Does it occur to anyone in the administration that U.S. efforts to play down events in eastern Ukraine contributed to the permissive environment in which Flight 17 was brought down?

Political shortsightedness being almost incurable, Mr. Legvold has taken to the pages of the current issue of Foreign Affairs to urge "damage control" in relations with Russia and to avoid "misperceptions." But the main misperception has been his—and the administration's—view of today's Russia. Too bad Vladimir Putin sees this White House exactly for what it is.



No I understand the situation perfectly, as does this reporter.

You would be wise to open your eyes. This script and Putins actions since he came to power read much like Hitlers in his rise to power. Of course no one at the time realised Hitlers true intentions except a few. It was only after the fact how evil Hitler was. Putin has even created his own people to blame everything on, Gay people.

Be very careful what you wish for, Putin is the most dangerous main to lead a nation since the time of Hitler.

http://mike-globaleconomy.blogspot.com.au/
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herbie
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Mike
22 Jul 2014, 11:30 AM
... the area the missile was fired from was controlled by Pro-Russian separatists ...
Try to get your act together Mike - Figure out if you reckon there is any significant separatist movement in Donetsk or if it's just a covert operation by the Russian Military at least please? And then try to be consistent in pushing that line maybe?
Mike
22 Jul 2014, 11:30 AM
... this is why bodies have been rotting in the field for 3 days and only recently collected ...
It was and apparently remains an active war zone - Donetsk civilians were killed in the conflict yesterday.
Mike
22 Jul 2014, 11:30 AM
... US radar and satellite confirms it was fired from an exact location. This is not science fiction, this capability has been around for decades to detect missile launches, this is how they detect a nuclear missile launch globally, it is so sensitive it also picks up house fires. Do you honestly think with the attention focused on Ukraine they would not have radar and satellites trained of this location spotting Russian military movements. It how NATO knows where Russian forces are and where they are massing ...
I have not questioned the capability of sophisticated military forces to track such things Mike - So I'm not sure why you feel compelled to tell me about such capability. Is there any particular reason you feel to tell me they have such capability when I have not questioned that they do have such capability?
Mike
22 Jul 2014, 11:30 AM
Yes, I have made up my mind as I understand what Putin is trying to do. I understand why he is doing it. He has limited window to try and change Russia long term strategic decline which is rapidly closing. I do not agree with his actions but completely understand why he is doing it. A much larger game is being played, just Putin is holding a losing hand at present. If he wants to pull an ace out of the pack then he needs to massively intervene with the Russian Military. In the end though the result will be the same, just more people will die to reach it. Russia's terminal decline is almost guaranteed. Russias needs the Ukraine as part of the Russian federation to be a global power and stave off its decline. Putin knows this and why what has happened is happening. The West also knows this and will do everything they can to prevent it. Ukraine certainly does not want another century under Russian domination, it did not turn out to well for them the first time.

The question is how high a price is Putin willing to pay, my bet is at some point he goes all in otherwise he loses and that means a very large war indeed. I doubt Putin will accept the West wining the Ukraine, he cant it means his political career is over, it means Russia's dream of rising again is dead and buried. Putin will not accept this, but he needs to play his hand smarter in the next round for the battle of Ukraine. So far Obama has out foxed him and applying huge losses to Russia without the US firing one bullet.
Yep, Ukraine remains 'piggy in the middle' - The West wants it; Russia wants it.

And Ukrainians remain divided as to what they want - It would seem? :

http://www.abc.net.au/news/interactives/ukraine-conflict-in-maps/

Edited by herbie, 22 Jul 2014, 12:15 PM.
A Professional Demographer to an amateur demographer: "negative natural increase will never outweigh the positive net migration"
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Dr Watson
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Strindberg
22 Jul 2014, 11:07 AM
What odds would I have got if I had suggested Herbie, lulldapull and Strindberg would all be arguing the same line?
Whenever you have an argument with someone, there comes a moment where you must ask yourself, whatever your political persuasion, 'am I the Nazi?'
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