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Argentina's debt fight: What it is, why it matters
Topic Started: 2 Jul 2014, 09:41 PM (5,232 Views)
Andrew Judd
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peter fraser
2 Aug 2014, 12:37 AM
I don't remember saying that money paid in taxes is burnt, once again you made that up.

I'm going to bed now Andrew, so why don't you write a post pointing out things you think I said and then you can shoot them down in flames. That's what you do isn't it.

Cheers.
Sigh

Warren Mosler says money paid in taxes is burnt. It does not fund anything etc etc.

So I am asking you why you pay taxes? And why even if MMT becomes the accepted name of our money system, why generally speaking will it still be necessary to pay taxes?

What enables the worthless token in the MMT system, that is printed into existance for pennies on the dollar to have a value?
Edited by Andrew Judd, 2 Aug 2014, 12:47 AM.
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peter fraser
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Andrew Judd
2 Aug 2014, 12:44 AM
Sigh

Warren Mosler says money paid in taxes is burnt. It does not fund anything etc etc.

So I am asking you why you pay taxes? And why even if MMT becomes the accepted name of our money system, why generally speaking will it still be necessary to pay taxes?

What enables the worthless token in the MMT system, that is printed into existance for pennies on the dollar to have a value?
I don't read Warren Mosler, I've already told you that. Governments collect taxes and then spend them back into the economy as a way of redistributing wealth and managing the economy. I doubt that anyone said that paying taxes is burning money - have you got a link showing where Mosler said that? I Googled it and nothing came up.

You are just making up strawman arguments again.
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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Strindberg
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peter fraser
2 Aug 2014, 09:16 AM
I don't read Warren Mosler, I've already told you that. Governments collect taxes and then spend them back into the economy as a way of redistributing wealth and managing the economy. I doubt that anyone said that paying taxes is burning money - have you got a link showing where Mosler said that? I Googled it and nothing came up.

You are just making up strawman arguments again.
Andrew made up nothing and it is certainly not a strawman. You have simply revealed your ignorance.

From Mosler's "SEVEN DEADLY INNOCENT FRAUDS OF ECONOMIC POLICY" book.
http://moslereconomics.com/2009/12/10/7-deadly-innocent-frauds/

Quote:
 
And what happens if you were to go to your local IRS office
to pay your taxes with actual cash? First, you would hand over
your pile of currency to the person on duty as payment. Next,
he’d count it, give you a receipt and, hopefully, a thank you for
helping to pay for social security, interest on the national debt,
and the Iraq war. Then, after you, the tax payer, left the room,
he’d take that hard-earned cash you just forked over and throw
it in a shredder.

Yes, it gets thrown it away. Destroyed! Why? There’s no
further use for it. Just like a ticket to the Super Bowl. After
you enter the stadium and hand the attendant a ticket that was
worth maybe $1000, he tears it up and discards it. In fact, you
can actually buy shredded money in Washington, D.C.
So if the government throws away your cash after
collecting it, how does that cash pay for anything, like Social
Security and the rest of the government’s spending? It doesn’t.
Can you now see why it makes no sense at all to think that
the government has to get money by taxing in order to spend?
In no case does it actually “get” anything that it subsequently
“uses.”


Or perhaps you prefer Bill Mitchell, another MMTer.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=9281
Quote:
 
Taxpayers do not fund anything
At times some document from the past is discovered that no-one much has read or paid any attention to but which offers fundamental insights into the options facing governments operating a monetary system based on a fiat currency. We have available now one such document which I will discuss in some detail. The essential insight can be summarised by the title of the blog – taxpayers do not fund anything. So when you hear commentators and politicians and the like use terms like “taxpayers’ funds are being mis-spent” etc, you can immediately conclude they do not understand how the monetary system functions.

The very same Mitchell article above entirely supports Andrews statement that in MMT theory taxes are used to control inflation which you denied.
Quote:
 
So this raises the question: if the government is not financially constrained then why does it impose taxes (especially if they are bad for growth etc)?

Ruml offers four insights into the purpose of taxation:

Federal taxes can be made to serve four principal purposes of a social and economic character. These purposes are:

1. As an instrument of fiscal policy to help stabilize the purchasing power of the dollar;


2. To express public policy in the distribution of wealth and of income, as in the case of the progressive income and estate taxes;

3. To express public policy in subsidizing or in penalizing various industries and economic groups;

4. To isolate and assess directly the costs of certain national benefits, such as highways and social security.

Purpose 1 is about inflation control. A fundamental principle of MMT is that the imposition of taxes allows the government to manage the state of aggregate demand.

Fraser, you need to find out what MMT is about before you throw your hat in with it and make a fool of yourself with your ignorance.

MMT is a left wing con designed to fool people into supporting socialistic government spending of other peoples money on things chosen by lefties.
Edited by Strindberg, 2 Aug 2014, 10:38 AM.
Housing costs to Income broadly unchanged since 1994 - re-ratified here
The People of Australia have the highest median wealth in the World
2002-2012 10 year house price growth the SLOWEST since 1952-1962
"There are two kinds of people in this world: ones that fiddle around wondering whether a thing's right or wrong and guys like us." (Hugo to Gagin in Ride the Pink Horse)
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Confused
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Strindberg
2 Aug 2014, 10:20 AM
Taxpayers do not fund anything
Is this splitting hairs to an extent? The money the govt uses to pay workers who repair roads must be extracted from the "wealth" of the people who use the roads -- the taxpayers -- otherwise the govt is printing money which leads to inflation which ultimately results in the same "wealth" taken from the taxpayers via erosion of the purchasing power of their money? However you look at it, the taxpayer cops it.
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Strindberg
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Confused
2 Aug 2014, 10:31 AM
Is this splitting hairs to an extent? The money the govt uses to pay workers who repair roads must be extracted from the "wealth" of the people who use the roads -- the taxpayers -- otherwise the govt is printing money which leads to inflation which ultimately results in the same "wealth" taken from the taxpayers via erosion of the purchasing power of their money? However you look at it, the taxpayer cops it.
You need to address that question to MMTers. Peter Fraser claims to be an MMTer but he's clearly ignorant of a major MMT tenet which states in Bill Mtchell's words:
"Taxpayers do not fund anything"
...and in Warren Mosler's words:
".. it makes no sense at all to think that the government has to get money by taxing in order to spend?"

The above con's are adopted by MMTers in order to justify unfunded government expenditure. They manage to rope in quite a lot of gullible people like Peter Fraser with this shit.

Edited by Strindberg, 2 Aug 2014, 10:47 AM.
Housing costs to Income broadly unchanged since 1994 - re-ratified here
The People of Australia have the highest median wealth in the World
2002-2012 10 year house price growth the SLOWEST since 1952-1962
"There are two kinds of people in this world: ones that fiddle around wondering whether a thing's right or wrong and guys like us." (Hugo to Gagin in Ride the Pink Horse)
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GloomBoomDoom
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Strindberg
2 Aug 2014, 10:20 AM
Fraser, you need to find out what MMT is about before you throw your hat in with it and make a fool of yourself with your ignorance.

MMT is a left wing con designed to fool people into supporting socialistic government spending of other peoples money on things chosen by lefties.
Lol sometimes Strindberenger cracks me up :D
MSE
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newjez
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Strindberg
2 Aug 2014, 10:20 AM
Andrew made up nothing and it is certainly not a strawman. You have simply revealed your ignorance.

From Mosler's "SEVEN DEADLY INNOCENT FRAUDS OF ECONOMIC POLICY" book.
http://moslereconomics.com/2009/12/10/7-deadly-innocent-frauds/




Or perhaps you prefer Bill Mitchell, another MMTer.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=9281


The very same Mitchell article above entirely supports Andrews statement that in MMT theory taxes are used to control inflation which you denied.


Fraser, you need to find out what MMT is about before you throw your hat in with it and make a fool of yourself with your ignorance.

MMT is a left wing con designed to fool people into supporting socialistic government spending of other peoples money on things chosen by lefties.
To scared to have a pop at b_b?
Whenever you have an argument with someone, there comes a moment where you must ask yourself, whatever your political persuasion, 'am I the Nazi?'
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Andrew Judd
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newjez
2 Aug 2014, 03:24 PM
To scared to have a pop at b_b?
B_B did not reveal a total ignorance of the basics of MMT. Perhaps Peter will admit to drinking before bed time and will be able to agree I was the sober one?

My thanks once again go to Strindberg!
Edited by Andrew Judd, 2 Aug 2014, 04:06 PM.
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Strindberg
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newjez
2 Aug 2014, 03:24 PM
To scared to have a pop at b_b?
Not at all. My post was an exposure of Peter Fraser's gross ignorance of MMT which he falsely imagines he agrees with. Peter asked for links revealing his own ignorance and I posted them.

None of what I wrote about Fraser's comments applies to b_b who I accept understands MMT as preached but he, like MMT as preached, ignores or hides the fact that no western economy adopts MMT. All western economies impose double accounting obligations on their governments, requiring the gov to have funds, which nullify any correspondence to MMT as preached. MMT is therefore not a description of the modern monetary system. Rather it is a description of a monetary system which socialists would like to be implemented so as to achieve more government spending on the stuff they love. I have challenged b_b on this aspect previously, at length.

Discussion with b_b is worthwhile as it always is with people who have different valid views. Discussion with profoundly ignorant people is not worthwhile.
Edited by Strindberg, 2 Aug 2014, 04:28 PM.
Housing costs to Income broadly unchanged since 1994 - re-ratified here
The People of Australia have the highest median wealth in the World
2002-2012 10 year house price growth the SLOWEST since 1952-1962
"There are two kinds of people in this world: ones that fiddle around wondering whether a thing's right or wrong and guys like us." (Hugo to Gagin in Ride the Pink Horse)
Profile "REPLY WITH QUOTE" Go to top
 
Andrew Judd
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Strindberg
2 Aug 2014, 04:25 PM
Not at all. My post was an exposure of Peter Fraser's gross ignorance of MMT which he falsely imagines he agrees with. Peter asked for links revealing his own ignorance and I posted them.

None of what I wrote about Fraser's comments applies to b_b who I accept understands MMT as preached but he, like MMT as preached, ignores or hides the fact that no western economy adopts MMT. All western economies impose double accounting obligations on their governments which nullify any correspondence to MMT as preached. MMT is therefore not a description of the modern monetary system. Rather it is a description of a monetary system which socialists would like to be implemented so as to achieve more government spending on the stuff they love. I have challenged b_b on this aspect previously, at length.

Discussion with b_b is worthwhile as it always is with people who have different valid views. Discussion with profoundly ignorant people is not worthwhile.
It is kind of funny that Peter Fraser is so far from bending his head around the basics of MMT, that when MMT is described to him he thinks its the product of an intoxicated mind!

:)

At a guess, Peter knows almost nothing about MMT but decided it is just a description of the modern money system!
Edited by Andrew Judd, 2 Aug 2014, 04:33 PM.
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