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Global Warming: Glaciers, ice caps and ice sheets are collapsing, and it's unstoppable; How the planet's ice cover is being altered by climate change
Topic Started: 27 May 2014, 01:51 PM (22,704 Views)
Foxy
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Zero is coming...

Investor888
8 Jun 2014, 02:21 PM
Now, now Mustapha, that's just too scientific for the feeble minded man-made global warming alarmists. They need to brainwashed alarmist doomsday predictions, so they can blaim the capitalist greedy pigs.
Also the fact that seas rose naturally 126metres in 1000 after the last ice age 11000yrs ago at the end of the Younger Dryas periid (without man-made warming), so a small 30cm rise by 2100 (based on even the IPCC documented sea-level rise rate of 3.1mm/yr in it's reports), is insignificant and not statistically significant above natural rises and falls.
Why are they so dumb??
Peter
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Shadow
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peter fraser
8 Jun 2014, 02:51 PM
You guys have found your religion and good for you, but until proven wrong I'll ignore the homespun theories and I'll go with the body of scientific thought.
There is no 'body of scientific thought' that shows the extent of human influence on the climate.

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It matters little whether the warming is caused by man or nature
1. What warming? There hasn't been any for two decades.

2. Of course it matters whether man is the primary cause of climate change. That is the entire crux of the argument. If man is the cause of climate change then we may be able to do something to prevent it from happening. If not, then it is going to happen regardless of what we do.

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if it's happening then prepare for it
Well, this is pretty much my position. Climate change happens, so we need to adapt to it, rather than wasting money on some futile crusade to prevent it.
1. Epic Fail! Steve Keen's Bad Calls and Predictions.
2. Residential property loans regulated by NCCP Act. Banks can't margin call unless borrower defaults.
3. Housing is second highest taxed sector of Australian Economy. Renters subsidised by highly taxed homeowners.
4. Ongoing improvement in housing affordability. Australian household formation faster than population growth since 1960s.
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peter fraser
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Shadow
9 Jun 2014, 07:52 AM
There is no 'body of scientific thought' that shows the extent of human influence on the climate.


There is.
Quote:
 
1. What warming? There hasn't been any for two decades.

There has been, but not all of the effects of warming raise ambient temperatures. Nevertheless temperatures around the globe have risen.

Quote:
 
2. Of course it matters whether man is the primary cause of climate change. That is the entire crux of the argument. If man is the cause of climate change then we may be able to do something to prevent it from happening. If not, then it is going to happen regardless of what we do.

I'm not interested in an argument. It is occurring so I make my plans accordingly.

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Well, this is pretty much my position. Climate change happens, so we need to adapt to it, rather than wasting money on some futile crusade to prevent it.

Good point but I disagree - we are moving into an era where even more jobs have to be created from nothing to keep people employed. As automation and robotics take away a lot of traditional avenues of employment we as a society will create ever more bullshit jobs as we have in the past. If you created a graph of celebrity chefs or even celebrities in general you will find that the curve has gone parabolic over the last 100 years. Movie stars, Rock stars, and Sporting heroes that get paid ridiculous sums of money to kick a football, the list of people we don't need who earn large sums of money will one day outnumber the list of people who actually work. That's the way life is heading with ever fewer of us engaged in the real work of food production and construction of needed infrastructure.

To maintain employment and GDP we will create ever more things that we don't really need like entertainment and sporting venues. That will add to our collective quality of life but it won't feed us or educate us.

Why not put some people to work and spend some of our money in reducing the garbage that we inject into the atmosphere, it's just another way of cleaning up the mess that we have left around the planet over the last 200 years since the industrial revolution. If we can spend money cleaning up our parks and gardens we can spend some on cleaning up the atmosphere so that future generations can breathe, and negate whatever effect the gasses have on the climate. Lets allow the earth to heat up or cool down naturally without any assistance from us.





Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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derp
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1. What warming? There hasn't been any for two decades.

There has been, but not all of the effects of warming raise ambient temperatures. Nevertheless temperatures around the globe have risen.


Show me ONE scientific paper that supports that utterly insane comment. You've gone way over the deep end buddy. Warming without a raise in ambient temperature... WOW! JUST WOW!

To put that into context you're saying that the room is getting warmer but the thermometer on the wall is not moving higher...

Where do you pull this stuff from?

And secondly, PLEASE show me one scientific paper to support that claim. Then if you can find that, show me a scientific paper that claims to know where the hidden warming is actually going.

You do realise that you're now literally believing in something that has not been measured right? You do know that? I just need to be crystal clear. Because once you confirm that, then I do know you are insane.
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Shadow
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peter fraser
9 Jun 2014, 11:55 AM
Quote:
 
There is no 'body of scientific thought' that shows the extent of human influence on the climate.
There is.
Then tell me the extent of human influence. Are we responsible for 5% of climate change, or 50%, or 95%? If you claim there is a 'body of scientific thought' that shows the extent of human influence, then you should be able to put a figure on it... how much of the change are we responsible for, and how much is natural?

Quote:
 
There has been, but not all of the effects of warming raise ambient temperatures.
So it's getting warmer, but not in a manner that causes temperatures to rise? Doesn't make sense...

Quote:
 
Why not put some people to work and spend some of our money in reducing the garbage that we inject into the atmosphere, it's just another way of cleaning up the mess that we have left around the planet over the last 200 years since the industrial revolution. If we can spend money cleaning up our parks and gardens we can spend some on cleaning up the atmosphere so that future generations can breathe, and negate whatever effect the gasses have on the climate.
Sure, it's good to do those things, but let's not pretend that it's going to prevent the climate from changing, and let's not write a blank cheque. There are other things that all that money and resources could arguably be better spent on.
Edited by Shadow, 9 Jun 2014, 01:27 PM.
1. Epic Fail! Steve Keen's Bad Calls and Predictions.
2. Residential property loans regulated by NCCP Act. Banks can't margin call unless borrower defaults.
3. Housing is second highest taxed sector of Australian Economy. Renters subsidised by highly taxed homeowners.
4. Ongoing improvement in housing affordability. Australian household formation faster than population growth since 1960s.
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peter fraser
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Shadow
9 Jun 2014, 01:27 PM
Then tell me the extent of human influence. Are we responsible for 5% of climate change, or 50%, or 95%? If you claim there is a 'body of scientific thought' that shows the extent of human influence, then you should be able to put a figure on it... how much of the change are we responsible for, and how much is natural?
It doesn't matter whether it's 25% or 35% or 65% it matters and we should do something to clean up our act otherwise future generations will have an even bigger job to do. We really do have to transition to a new fuel source anyway, so it's a no-brainer.

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So it's getting warmer, but not in a manner that causes temperatures to rise? Doesn't make sense...

I'm not having a shot at you but do you know what latent heat is, do you understand the energy required to convert ice into water?

Do you know what melting ice on a scale not seen before will do to ocean temperatures?

Quote:
 
Sure, it's good to do those things, but let's not pretend that it's going to prevent the climate from changing, and let's not write a blank cheque. There are other things that all that money and resources could arguably be better spent on.

Well if it's good to do those things then lets do them.
You do know that we print the money don't you? Every $1 spent is part of our GDP. How many parking attendants do we need?
Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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Shadow
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peter fraser
9 Jun 2014, 03:07 PM
It doesn't matter whether it's 25% or 35% or 65% it matters and we should do something to clean up our act otherwise future generations will have an even bigger job to do. We really do have to transition to a new fuel source anyway, so it's a no-brainer.
Of course it matters. If humans are only responsible for 1% of climate change, then there's little point trying to prevent it. If we're responsible for 99% of climate change then it does make sense to try and prevent it. How much are we responsible for? You say there is a body of scientific thought that shows the extent of human influence, so can you tell me what that extent is?

Quote:
 
I'm not having a shot at you but do you know what latent heat is, do you understand the energy required to convert ice into water?

Do you know what melting ice on a scale not seen before will do to ocean temperatures?
Leaving aside the fact that Antarctic sea ice is at record levels, how do you explain the past two decades during which surface temperatures have not increased?

Quote:
 
melting ice on a scale not seen before
Not seen before since when? How far do records go back? Not very far is the answer. Melting ice on a much greater scale has certainly been seen, many times. Perhaps not seen using modern technology such as satellite imagery, but that's because modern technology hasn't been around for very long.

Quote:
 
Well if it's good to do those things then lets do them.
Because there may be better things to spend the money and resources on. For example the money and resources might be directed at housing the homeless, protecting children from abuse, eliminating slavery, famine and drought relief etc. I think some of those causes may be more important than reducing CO2 levels by 0.1% or whatever.

Quote:
 
You do know that we print the money don't you? Every $1 spent is part of our GDP. How many parking attendants do we need?
The money will come from taxes that could otherwise be spent on other things. How much extra tax are you willing to pay each year in order to have a negligible impact on the climate?
Edited by Shadow, 9 Jun 2014, 03:40 PM.
1. Epic Fail! Steve Keen's Bad Calls and Predictions.
2. Residential property loans regulated by NCCP Act. Banks can't margin call unless borrower defaults.
3. Housing is second highest taxed sector of Australian Economy. Renters subsidised by highly taxed homeowners.
4. Ongoing improvement in housing affordability. Australian household formation faster than population growth since 1960s.
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peter fraser
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Shadow
9 Jun 2014, 03:21 PM
Of course it matters. If humans are only responsible for 1% of climate change, then there's little point trying to prevent it. If we're responsible for 99% of climate change then it does make sense to try and prevent it. How much are we responsible for? You say there is a body of scientific thought that shows the extent of human influence, so can you tell me what that extent is?


Leaving aside the fact that Antarctic sea ice is at record levels, how do you explain the past two decades during which surface temperatures have not increased?


Not seen before since when? How far do records go back? Not very far is the answer. Melting ice on a much greater scale has certainly been seen, many times. Perhaps not seen using modern technology such as satellite imagery, but that's because modern technology hasn't been around for very long.


Because there may be better things to spend the money and resources on. For example the money and resources might be directed at housing the homeless, protecting children from abuse, eliminating slavery, famine and drought relief etc. I think some of those causes may be more important than reducing CO2 levels by 0.1% or whatever.


The money will come from taxes that could otherwise be spent on other things. How much extra tax are you willing to pay each year in order to have a negligible impact on the climate?
and that's why I can't be bothered arguing. The sea ice levels are not critical if you understand some basics of how heat interacts with ice and water. Do you know how much heat is needed to convert ice to water? Do you know what melting ice will do to the ocean temperatures? Did you know that one of the effects of global warming will be a lowering of ambient temperatures?

Good luck with your religion.
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Investor888
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peter fraser
9 Jun 2014, 06:26 PM
and that's why I can't be bothered arguing. The sea ice levels are not critical if you understand some basics of how heat interacts with ice and water. Do you know how much heat is needed to convert ice to water? Do you know what melting ice will do to the ocean temperatures? Did you know that one of the effects of global warming will be a lowering of ambient temperatures?

Good luck with your religion.
Peter, your arguments are getting more and more stupid.

""Did you know that one of the effects of global warming will be a lowering of ambient temperatures?""

So global warming will make it colder? Maybe you should run your understanding by your man-made global warming masters (IPCC), who are still saying that doing nothing will result in 2-4deg of warming by century end.

So where is the "warming" in your "Global Warming". You complete nutcase.

""The sea ice levels are not critical ""

Funny, as all the alarmist predictions don't eventuate (such as sea-levels not rising very quickly as expected), then it suddenly becomes less important to you man-made warming loonies.

Quote:
 
Do you know how much heat is needed to convert ice to water? Do you know what melting ice will do to the ocean temperatures?


So now your argument is that ice, which is cooler than the water (which is not frozen), will somehow be responsible for warming the oceans. There you go. Next time I'll save electricity and warm my water by dropping cubes of ice into it. :re:

Based on my many drinking nights out, my highly scientific experiments :to: suggests that the melting ice cubes in my bourbon and coke actually cool the liquid itself. :to: To think, all these years, I have been doing it wrong, and the melting ice has actually been warming by bourbon and coke.
Edited by Investor888, 9 Jun 2014, 06:46 PM.
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peter fraser
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Investor888
9 Jun 2014, 06:41 PM
Peter, your arguments are getting more and more stupid.

""Did you know that one of the effects of global warming will be a lowering of ambient temperatures?""

So global warming will make it colder? Maybe you should run your understanding by your man-made global warming masters (IPCC), who are still saying that doing nothing will result in 2-4deg of warming by century end.

So where is the "warming" in your "Global Warming". You complete nutcase.

""The sea ice levels are not critical ""

Funny, as all the alarmist predictions don't eventuate (such as sea-levels not rising very quickly as expected, then it suddenly becomes less important to you man-made warming loonies.




So now your argument is that ice, which is cooler than the water (which is not frozen), will somehow be responsible for warming the oceans. There you go. Next time I'll save electricity and warm my water by dropping cubes of ice into it. :re:

Based on my many drinking nights out, my highly scientific experiments :to: suggests that the melting ice cubes in my bourbon and coke actually cool the liquid itself. :to:
Yep, that's more reason to not bother discussing this subject with people who think they know something but don't.

If you can't follow what I said then you have a real problem understanding any of the information on this subject. It is obvious that warming will temporarily cause cooling, and when I say temporarily I mean for maybe 50yrs or longer, it's not going to be an overnight change to higher temperatures.

The next issue you have to come to grips with is the constant application of heat to ice will not result in a uniform gain in temperature because of then effect of latent heat. That is there is quite a bit of energy required to change the state ice into the liquid form of water. If you don't understand that then you will make all of the wrong assumptions.

I can't quickly find a suitable link to explain that, but if you look here you will see that it takes 344 kilojoules of energy (heat) to convert a kilo of ice to water without any affect at all on the temperature - http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/latent-heat-melting-solids-d_96.html

this is not an effect confined to water, it affects everything as far as I know as the solid form becomes liquid. The reverse applies when we freeze water, that's why at 0 Celius both water and ice can exist at standard air pressure. The same applies as water becomes steam at 100 Celcius, there is added energy required to change the state that the molecules arrange themselves in.

I have other things to do right now.

Any expressed market opinion is my own and is not to be taken as financial advice
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